Useful alarm related thread copied from PMC forum

[Geehawk]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/metroclub/messages/?msg=9892

Some people might find this thread useful. Would be useful to be able to copy the contents (b4 it drops off the board), but don't see how you can.

[BassAddict]

Like this you mean ?! :)

Just as Metromartin's problems seem to be making good mine are just starting!!
2 botton remote on '95 Kensington. Just now and again it won't accept the 'reset' command from the button. That's become increasingly frequent 'til today it is taking about 5 presses before you hear the relay click and it resets.

No problem I thought - new battery in remote! but according to Rover dealer it can't be changed and a new fob and re-programme is £120.


Hi there
Your Rover dealer is talking .................

A battery is about £2.50 and can be changed. Done it to both of mine.

A new fob is £45.00 +VAT as quoted in the EPC.

If the battery does not do the trick then come back.

My local dealer, in Exeter, said he could not reprogram my upgraded 5AS. Took it to another Rover garage in Torquay and they did it in about 25min (official time .4hr £25+VAT) no problems.

One thing I have done is to pull the aerial wire, yellow white, out of the harness and lengthened it to approx 1/2 wavelength - approx 330mm (oh sorry being an oldie approx 1ft) This will greatly increase sensitivity. I can now arm / disarm from about 30ft away.

Regards,

Tony

[Geehawk]

Okay. Carry on then. Theres only about 38 or so more posts to copy :P

[BassAddict]

Aaah - bugger !!! :)

[BassAddict]

Well, I'm bored at work - so here goes :) !!! EDIT - Had to split it over quite a few posts I'm afraid as it wouldn't let me put it all in once post !! Hope someone does indeed find it usefull ! :)
They told you that the battery cant be changed ?

Tony, I was told to pull the aerial wire out but i couldnt find it. Could you tell where i would find it as with mine i need to be stood next to the car :(
DazBoss

Thanks Tony & Daz
I'll try splitting the transmitter to find the battery.
Admit I haven't looked at it to closely - my daughter's car - I was concerned that removing the battery would upset the workings!
Will post the reult!

This is a common problem now on the whole 95-2000 Rover range that hasve the 5as security system. There is no aerial on the alarm box that is the 3as system found on Metros, Mini, Discovery and Range Rovers. What you need to do is check the battery and if that does not cure it take out the glovebox and above it is the alarm ECU un-plug it and leave it un-pluged for about 25mins and it will fully reset the unit. Plug it back in and hold the unlock button down. If you have both fobs you will have to do it on both at the same time. If that does not work then post your e-mail add and I will send you some other things to test the fob and the alarm ECU.

[BassAddict]

Hi
There is an Ae on the 5AS that goes to the TxRx subassembly within the unit. It is very bad RF practise to put an Ae within effectively a shielded copper wiring harness.
That is why the sensitivity is poor.
Regards,
Tony
Hi
Back to aerials again.
The Ae is on Pin 9 of the 26 pin connector to the alarm unit. Colour coding is white / yellow and is “buried” in the wiring harness to the connector. A very, very poor design.
You probably already know but the alarm is situated above the glove box. Bolted to the place where a left-hand drive steering column would be fitted.
What I did was to completely replace this wire with one that is half wavelength in length. I originally quoted 330mm “off the top of my head”, but the correct length is 346mm. You do not have to be too accurate +/- 5mm is ok. You could just lengthen the wire by soldering a piece on the end.
To make it stronger I covered it in heat shrink. I then relocated it behind the hazard flasher next to the ash tray and then dressed it vertically downwards behind the cassette holder. I know I put some tie wraps on it to hold it in place and out off sight as well at various points.
Anyway with this configuration, you now only have to touch the key fob and the c/locking alarm etc work instantly. As stated previously the range is now about 30ft and I can also lock /unlock the car through my front window which I could not do before. Like you I previously had to stand next to the car.
With the upgraded 5AS alarm I now have flashing indicators, ultrasonic protection and courtesy light on entry and exit. Most useful on dark nights and now mornings. It also has friendly immobilisation. So now if I open the drivers door etc etc and the immobiliser activates I do not have to press the fob any more to de-activate the immobiliser.
Regards,
Tony
Cheers for that i will try it. Sorry to ask you another question but how did you get flashing indicators and courtesy light on entry and exit ?
DazBoss
The orginal 5as system on the 1st 100 could have had the indicator flashing if Rover would have put the wiring in but they did not. I would also be intrested in the interior light coming on and going off when you set the alarm. I have got an interior delay but not that feature.

[BassAddict]

To both
The upgraded alarm was from a Rover 45. It has the extra connector
for the indicators, friendly immobilisation, courtesy delay and another feature which is;- You can take a wire from the inertia switch to the alarm. So in an accident this facility flicks the c/locking off. Being cynical I did not fit this as I thought in a bad shunt the doors would be jammed solid anyway!

The ultrasonic comes off the existing connector.

With respect to zee flashing indicators I could have designed a cct to do this taking a "sniff" off the OMCRON relay inside the alarm but why re-invent the wheel?

I suppose they deleted the indicator facility from the 3AS for cheapness purposes. Mine flashes 3 times on lock and once on unlock.

Oh and in a heavy hail storms the ultrasonic sets the alarm off!! This used to happen occasionally on my first Primera.

Regards,

Tony
The alarm in the 45 is the same unit from 1995. There is 2 wiring connectors on the 5AS a big grey one and a white small one. The grey one is where all the alarm and ignition stuff goes. The white one is for the flashing indicators, light on and off, ultrasonic, and the inertia switch. I have put the indicators in my self that is a very simple job put the interior light is a little harder as I would not know where to connect it to on the car of fusebox etc.


How easy is it to have the indicators flashing then as im crap with electrics.
Also i would like to replace my central locking motors with after market ones. The pass side is easy as its only two wires but can anyone tell me what colour wires go to the rover coloured wires on the drivers side. What i would do is cut off the rover connector & fix it to the after market wires ?

DazBoss
Indicators are easy to do as is the interior light to fade on and off when setting the alarm and disarming the alarm it even fades out when the ignition is turned on. It is just two wires for the indicators and one wire for the light. I will get the wiring codes and locations for you and I will post them on hear. The motors are a little more difficult I just did mine by trial and error the worst you can do is blow the fuse so that is my suggestion.
wow - loads of helpful stuf...
The trick you mentioned of lengthening the arial for the 5as remote... that will work for the 3as remote too yeah? Is it the same wavelength?

[BassAddict]

No that trick will not work for the 3AS as that has a coxial type aerial socket with a little aerial in it. You can try and make it bigger by putting a new TV aerial type connector on to one end and leave the other end blank but to be honest the Metro should be fairly good on range. The interior light can'nt be added to the 3AS system at all.
To All
I will tidy up a lot of the queries here.

From the EPC there was only one type of alarm fitted to the R100. It does not have the relay and other components for the extra facilities I have mentioned. The PCB has been laid out to accept them though.
So if the “upgraded” alarm is fitted to a R100 then it must be retro-fit.

So to DazBos what have you got? A Metro or R100? If R100 you cannot have flashing indicators. BUT if you got one of the earlier upgraded (“deluxe” from R200 (bubble shape) / R400) alarms it would be feasible to transfer the components to give that facility. And then simply add the extra wiring. It would have to be an earlier alarm. My alarm, as stated from a R45, has had the PCB layout altered and the detail circuitry for the facilities I have mentioned has changed. That is what I wanted to do to save the £25+VAT of having another alarm reprogrammed!!

Well I initially said “CANNOT” but it still can be done. Steering diodes from the existing C/locking relay to activate another relay etc and then steering diodes from the new relay to the indicators etc. To get the triple flashing etc you would need to design a simple astable multi-vibrator cct. and no doubt the proverbial 555 timing chip included. But as I said why re-invent the wheel when it has already been done! Just fit the upgraded alarm.

On the upgraded alarm the courtesy delay comes from pin 10 on the white connector.
Ultrasonic is pin 14, battery power, and pin 20, signal, on the grey connector.

The 3AS also has the flashing indicator facility (ok you all know that!!) with the two NEC /OMCRON relays fitted so the 5AS was cheapened in this area. Cynically about £3 worth of components in total if that.

With respect to Ae length this can also be applied to the 3AS. The big difference between 3AS and 5AS is that the AE is not buried in a wiring harness so should already be more sensitive. The fact that the 3AS has 75 ohm coaxial Ae termination makes no difference. Again 5AS altered for cheapness. The Coaxial connector must have saved them at least 10p!! Frequency is the same, nominal 433MHz, so Ae half wavelength same at 346mm.

With respect to courtesy delay, It is still slightly naff. When you turn the ignition off the light does not automatically come on unlike my Almera and no doubt other modern cars. The light comes on when you open the door and then gradually fades after setting the alarm c/locking etc. What is nice though is on a dark morning when deactivating the alarm etc the interior light comes on. In fact what I have done is not used the central interior light but fitted extra lights above the doors. I have used the little lights from the glove box. Quite Twee it is!!

Enifin else???

Regards,

Tony
From Maplin
Central locking actuators, to replace the awful Rockwell ones supplied by Rover!!

YD78L passenger side (2pin)

YD79L driver side (5pin)

The five wires are:- Maplin

Orange pos/neg power to actuator from alarm Blue

Pink pos/neg power to actuator from alarm Green

Orange/Purple sensing back to the alarm Brown

Pink/Purple sensing back to the alarm White

Black earth used by the sensing Black

Also for a reference go onto Andy’s site Biggleslife.co.uk and look at my schematic for windows etc. It includes the central locking detail.

Regards

Tony
Thanks tony I also need to know the maplin motor colours :)
Hehe the old Montego lamp delay relay fades when the ignition comes on so must be posible??
Do you know if the land rovers witht he 3AS have ultra sonic sensors? I think theres 4 unused pins in mine, might be for them.

Martin
Hi Martin
I don't have any info on the 3AS, but yes the other 4 pin connector is probably for an ultrasonic or possibly tilt sensor.

Regards,

Tony

[BassAddict]

I would also like to say a few things. I used to work for a Rover dealer and all Rover 100 has the same 5AS system as all the Rover range from 1995 to 2003 which is when they changed to a Pektron unit. The Rover 100 any from 1995-1999 can have an interior light delay and indicator flash by adding three wires. If you remove the glove box the 5AS system is screwed behind it if you undo the two screws and pull the unit down you will see there is a big grey connector and a white one. The white on in the MK2 400, MK3 200,24,45,ZR,ZS does the indicator flash and interior light control which has a delay of 15 seconds when any door is opened and it also goes off as soon as the ignition is turned to position 2. It also fades on and off when you set the alarm etc. The 3AS does not have any of these features but the black 4 or 5 pin connector is for Ultrasonics you need to obtain a Metro/Mini soft top ultrasonics for that feature to work but I have managed to get some from Maplins to work before. Now back to the 5AS if you want the indicators to flash then you need to connect two wires to the top far left connectors in the white section and run the wires to the steering wheel indicator switches and the connect one to the Green/Red and the other to the Green/White wire. The interior light control is a little more harder you need to cut a hole top and bottom on the interior relay and connect a wire to the one of the big pins on the relay in the centre it is the 2nd one in and then connect the wire to the the 4th connector in on the alarm on the same level as the indicators. I can send anybody pictures of how to do this any Rover 100 can have these mods done and it is very simple. Just post your e-mail add up and I will send you the pictures in a ZIP file.
Cheers for the info.
Mine is a 1995 M reg R100. So to have the indicators & light relay then i would need to upgrade the alarm box from a R200/R400 I might do that i'l see.

Cheers for the info on the after market central locking motors i will get some soon & wire them up (im not the best at wiring lol)

Also tonight Sunday 10th Oct i went to open my R100 & the fob did not work, Ive never had this happen before. So i removed the battery & press both buttons for 5secs & put the battery back in, then the fob worked. Do you know what this is.

The fob i am using is a recon fob as when i brought the car i had one fob that worked & one that didnt. But i went to ww.remotekey.com & brought a recon fob off him. He said that my non working fob couldnt be fixed so i scraped that. Im gong to carry a spare battery for the fob in the car incase i ever need it.

DazBoss

P.S reason why i wanted the flashing indicators is because when i fit the aftermarket c/l motors they will be quieter than the Rover motors. So i wont know when it locks or unlocks from a few feet away :-(
1 Please do not repeat things I have already said.
2 The R100 has only one alarm. READ the EPC.

I'll EDIT this !!!!!

Just got my schematic out. Pin 10 is your "pin 4" but there is no need to go through the lights on warning buzzer. Much easier to connect to Main 3 rear on fusebox. As there are 3 Purple White cables then use DMM to deduce correct one.
But then you have to have the upgraded alarm to do this!!
Regards
Tony
Hi Dazboss
I am pretty sure you have the standard alarm with the single grey connector. As stated as far as the EPC is concerned there is only one alarm. I now have three standard alarms and are all the same, 96 97 and 98 cars. Ok on a production line they have been known to fit suitable alternative components if temporarily out of stock of the original. But I think this would be very rare these days.
Let me know I will give more info if required.
From previous threads I think you said that remote key were very near to you which is very useful.
Regards,
Tony

[BassAddict]

Interesting thread, nice 1 guys! My alarm has a mind of its own, goes off whenever it feels. I know all the sensors work fine, i fooled the alarm into thinking i was 'breaking in' through all the sensors, all work fine, so i've just been out and unplugged the alarm to reset it. However, whilst hanging upside-down under the dash, i glanced across to see a single wire with connector hanging from around the fuse/realy board area, it is a purple wire with black strip. Any ideas where this has come from? Slightly worrying lol! Cheers!
EDIT: oh yeah, interested in extending the ae wiring...while its out, how do you retrieve the ae wire pin from the grey connector? cheers!
Hi
You must have the 3AS as you have seen the Ae socket. On the later 5AS the Coaxial socket was deleted and the Ae was rerouted through the grey connector.
So in the 3AS case solder a wire to the end to make 346mm in total length. I was not clear on this point how the 3AS and 5AS alarm differ with respect to the Ae.
I know the wire you mean. Purple black is horn cct earth switching. It is used for connecting other systems to set the alarm off. So if this is floating around and the connector on the end is not very good then any earth contact will set the alarm off.
Regards,
Tony
Quite alarming! (sorry, couldn't resist cheap gag...) Hmmm, seems a valid reason for the 'random' alarm problem. The connection on the end is good, its the type which has a plastic shroud round it - the same type as is used for light connections, door light switch sensors etc in the car.
U think this could just be a spare or blank, then? Dosen't seem that way, are you sure there isn't somewhere around that area that it should be connected to?
Oh yeah, it is the 5as alarm with the aerial in the grey connector, i've extended the wire and it works much better cheers!
Addition (can't edit for some reason)
The Main 3 rear connector for the purple/white wire is pin 1. For location pin 2 is red/light green.

Hi
Yes, that wire is for additions etc.
So you too have found it better. I used to have get right by the car originally. Even then the system sometimes did not work.
By the way, so you must have R100 GTA. So did your alarm have the extra white connector? Please come back on this one. As I said to DazBoss I have 3 (96 Si, 97 GSi and my original alarm) alarms from R100s and none have the extra connector.
I know more about this then you. The EPC only has one alarm box listed because it then goes by the VIN date on the epc. Rover can not use diffrent just to please people who have illigal copies of the EPC. I know for a fact anybody who has a Rover 100 with the standard alarm can have the indicators and interior light mod. As for a fact the MFU on the 200,25,400,45 controls the interior light so you just cut the MFU section out.

[BassAddict]

Yeah its a 100gta...how did u no?! I had a good (ahem) fondle of the alarm unit and couldn't find a white connector, just the grey!
So have you any idea what could be causing the randomness of the alarm? I'll wrap that loose connection for a start and see how it behaves, but it aint half annoying gettin up at 3 in the mornin to turn off your alarm!
No Rover 100 has the white connector as it controls the indicators, ultrasonics, interior light and the multi function unit on the 200, 400, 25, 45. The reason your alarm could be going off is something is triggering a sensor. Check all the earth's on the door switches and the bonet switch. The alarm should not detect voltage drain but some car radios can drain to much to trip the alarm other then that I would say a bad connector or earth.
As Gtiboy has proved
That is the point no white connector, then internals for the facilities. So the other alarm has to be fitted.
Radios don't enter this problem. The alarm initially monitors current before being armed. That's why it has the initial hold off time to do this.
Ok, will go check the earths on doors and bonnet, where are they located? And where on the boot, haven't got a clue about the electronics of my car, lol!
So you're also saying that my stereo could be causing too much of a drain and so triggering the alarm? :-S Any way to cure this?
Hi there!
Firstly thanks for comming back reagrding the type of alarm fitted to your GTI; thus proving my point regarding the particular alarm fitted to R100s.
The door switches are located on the lower A pillars between the hinges. They are black plastic pins with an oval rubber? surround held in place with one screw.
Really if the door light goes out /on etc when opening and closing the door they are "probably" ok. But undo the screw and pull the little assembly out. Check the purple/ white wire for chaffing etc.
The boot switch is inside the tailgate and operates off the latch. Check this. One perennial problem is that switch not working properly tending to leave the boot light on (or maybe intermittent). but if this was the case and the car is left for long periods it tends to drain the battery. Again check operstion of switch and wire etc.
The Alarm switch is on the offside of the car just above the ECU purple red wire. Again check operation.
You really need a DMM to help you here. Connect one lead to the earth tag (screw point) and the other to the lead. Everytime you press the button the DMM should show open /short cct etc.
You say this problem is intermittent so check all of these wires.
Also has the car been involved in an accident? Wires could have been damaged. I have found accident repair shops not very good in this area.
With respect to the radio, I cannot see this being the problem. As you know most radios have a standby facility provided by a battery connection. This draws very little current (milliAmps ) If this cct was faulty it would not be intermittent. Also the alarm has a hold off facility and before setting will check the system for any current drain. Therefore if the radio was that bad the alarm would not set. Also from a safety point of view all modern radios like other electronic equipment will have a current monitoring cct so if excessive current is being drawn the system should shut down.
If you have a decent system say with extra amplifiers etc make sure they are switched off.
Oh yes. I forgot to answer you on this.You asked how to remove the female pin from the alarm connector. You need a set of jewelers screwdrivers. Directly below the pin is another hole. Inside there is a little plastic tang. You hold this down with the screw driver and then the wire can be pulled from the rear. If all else fails solder a wire to the existing wire or, a bit crude, but inline twist the wire onto the existing wire. Insulate with tape.
Regards,
Tony
PS "Trust me" I am a professional electronics /comms engineer. But I still make mistttttakes!!
EDIT:- Oh mistakes!!
As I have alarms fixed in my mind I made a mistake when I said the purple /black wire will set the “alarm” off. This is incorrect. What I should have said is that it will set the horn off!! But if there was an intermittent short on the horn cct then the horn may sound when driving. As you have not mentioned this then that cannot be the problem.

[BassAddict]

Hi again
With all this other diversification on alarm types I forgot to answer (or try to) your fob problem.
It may be the batteries. My R100 says that if batteries low the fob works every other go, or something like that.
I have found that disturbing tired batteries can slightly reactivate them but it is probably they are making better contact. This seems to work on my remote for the TV. Otherwise it gets thrown across the lounge. Works better then!
Also open up the fob again and have a look for any hairline cracks for the battery carrier or one of the little pins snapped. This was the problem on the fob to the GTI I briefly had. A blob of solder cured it.
Regards,
Tony
PS The Maplin actuators go "Clonk" and not ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
If you remove batteries they stop being discharged and have chance to "clear" themselves so they seem to work a little longer. Warming them up could help as well on cold mornings :-) most mini owners will know all about this.
As for throwing across the room, I think electronics respond very well to threats and violence. I was trying to start one of our racing cars here the other day as it was an open day and needed to be showed off. It wasn't having any of it, until I threatened it with the laptop and a remap of the start up fuelling. And like magic it started and has ran beautifully ever since :-p
Hi John
Some times re-programming with a 3lb lump hammer works!
Tony

[PaulC]

Bassadict- You just want to reach the magic 1000 posts mark!! :lol:

[Martin]

Naahhhh

If he really wanted to, he could complain all he likes on his "professional" frame, when someone asks something :P

[BassAddict]

Just purely trying to be of assistance to everyone :wink: Just a nice coincidence that it takes me that little bit closer to my 1000th post :lol: !!
Rich

[evolotion]

Re the contents of that thread... i couldnt believe it when i stripped the alarm out the car and the arial wire was jsut tucked inside the loom! what numpty designed that!

[picKup]

If you think that is odd you should look at the latest loom!
Im sure on my loom the arial was the heated rear screen circuit!?!
Makes sense tho!

[evolotion]

on our rover 800 the stereo's arial was part of the heated rear screen circuit! ment there was no external arials to be snapped off!

the we box of tricks tha tallowed this was under the parcel shelf of the booted versions if you fancy doing the same(i wil b soon...) cant remember where it was on the hatchback tho.