Which subframe is this pic of? ...

[FeEBLe]

Hi there, im a bit stuck choosing a subframe. My situation is this..

MG engine died, so took my car off the road and decided seen as i dont need it at the moment ove rthe winter period, might as well vtec it.

My car has...
brand new 13x7 extremelites
vented metro turbo disks and 4pot calipers
grp 5 arches
brand new spax adjustables and adjustarides (same as hilos really)
painted up flip front but wings not cut off yet

I would just get the watsons frame, except my car will be too wide with my wheels, I wouldnt be able to use my brakes either.

Thats when i found this subframe, i think its the one they use at www.gomini.com except they are in USA.

Somone sent me pics of this subframe, it uses my suspension, can use my wheels and brakes, and steering rack, and also fits under a standard flip front end and its not 20FT wide!! Here are the pics...

http://www.james.fawcett.btinternet.co.uk/vtec1.jpg

http://www.james.fawcett.btinternet.co.uk/vtec2.jpg

http://www.james.fawcett.btinternet.co.uk/vtec3.jpg

Can anyone tell me where i can get a frame like that or similar in the UK?

Thanks alot!

James

ps: this is my car www.james.fawcett.btinternet.co.uk 6 months ago

[MattG]

i dont think it is the frame that gomini use , as the one they are selling is the same type as p&l / watson .. you will need to use 13/14 inch metro wheels. have large spacers on back etc..

those pics must be of someone elses ???

Matt

We have to find out whos it is!!!! I have to use my wheels and brakes, jus have to!

[Mini1380]

That subframe is being built by a guy by the name of Brian Campbell in Washington State. It appears to be very well made. You don't even have to extend the frontend to get the engine fitted. I have received some information on it. This is the subframe that I am planning on using should I finally decide to start on a VTEC project. Here is a note from Brian off of another bulletin board.

Sounds like I need to weigh in here. I'm the guy building the VTEC/Mini subframe that Strudel posted a picture of. I have posted info about it in the past, but I guess it gets lost in the volume of messages. Yes, I am producing these frames, have delivered some, and am currently working on a lot of five for customers. None of my first customers has yet finished a car, and my own car project competes with building sub-frames for my available time. All in good time. This is a part time venture for me. I already have a full time job. I have learned how to make them well, and am now trying to learn how to make them fast. Bending rectangular tubing is a bit of an art. So far it's a pretty slow pace, and I appreciate the patience of those who have ordered them. I have not done any marketing as of yet, just responded to customers who in some cases insisted on making a deposit and placing an order. The frame itself is made from mild steel tubing and weighs 25 pounds more than stock. Add the 50 pounds a B16A VTEC has on an A-Series, and you gain about 75 pounds. Less if you ditch the stock cast iron exhaust header. The frame allows mounting of a B-Series VTEC without lengthening the nose, but does require some under the hood surgery, as all VTEC swaps do. It keeps stock suspension mounting geometry, allowing stock track width front and back, and allowing the use of Mini steering rack and Mini brake options. It is designed to use S-Racer springs or coil-overs. It will not accomodate stock Mini rubber cone springs. It is a tight fit, but it does fit. It comes with three auxialliary motor mounts. I also offer custom axle shafts to mate the Honda inner CV and Mini outer CV joints, made by an aftermarket supplier of Honda axles. I don't yet have a radiator solution or yet designed an alternator mount, although I have done considerable research on both. Mounting the VTEC requires cutting the front corner off the oil pan, and requires major surgery on the intake manifold, ala MiniMike of Canada. The swap is a lot of work, but should give great rewards. As I learn how to speed up production, I will be able to offer more to customers. If you are not in a big hurry, I can probably help you. If you need one next week, you may want to shop elsewhere.

Hope this sheds some light for those looking for information. I have not been trying to avoid sharing, just don't want to advertise more than I can deliver. I will be glad to talk more with those who want more info. Just drop me an e-mail.

Cheers,

Brian Campbell

[Mini1380]

For more pictures, look at the following address.

http://www.angelfire.com/droid/strudel/subframepics2/sf2.html

[andy@amt]

With are frame you dont have cut the inlet .the mini cvs are not up to power of the vtec.

[FeEBLe]

Just got this email from him....



Hi James,

I did not know you were in the UK. I don't think you will find a UK supplier, and I have not shipped any of these sub-frames there yet, but I am sure it can be done. My guess is it will be a bit pricey, just like shipping UK items to here. I live in the NW of the US, in the Seattle, Washington area.

I believe all the items you mention will fit fine. Sounds like you have a lot of the right parts. I do need to make you aware of a challenge you face converting a RHD car. When mounting a VTEC in a Mini, the differential fits up against the steering rack on the right hand side of the car. In a LHD car, it's not too hard to work things to gain the needed running room. In a RHD car, the largest part of the RHD steering rack needs to occupy the same space as the differential. It ends up being about an 1 1/4" problem, and finding that extra space involves moving the steering rack back into the floorboard area somehow. I am sure it can be done, but will be a bit of work. In a standard length roundnose, it is not practical to move the engine forward to clear the rack, as the exhaust will conflict with the grill and the valve cover will hit the front of the bonnet. It is not so much caused by the design of the sub-frame, as much as where the engine has to sit in order to fit under the nose. This is a challenge unique to RHD cars, and may be why UK suppliers of VTEC kits all require you to extend the nose. I just want you to be aware of the need to resolve this conflict before you decide to buy a sub-frame.

The sub-frame was designed around a B16A2 engine, but all B16A engines have the same extenal dimensions and mount the same. The larger B18 engines mount the same, but have a slightly taller deck height, so are about 7 mm taller, making them a bit tighter against the bonnet, but I think will still fit. Although I have not fitted one, I am fairly certain the SOHC VTEC engines (D16Y, D16Z6, and some others) use compatable mounts, and can be made to fit.

Hope this helps you in your decision process. If I can answer other questions, please let me know.

Cheers,

Brian Campbell



Cheers brian! Anyone got any ideas over the steering rack problem?

[strudel]

Hello everyone, First post as I just got this board from Colin.ab who just joined MiniPortal http://forum.miniportal.ca//phpBB2/

I have seen Brian's sub first hand and he has done a great job. If I wasn't committed to my own Honda Hybrid project I would probably just order his.

This will be a site that I hope to participate in as much as possible as obviously you all have the same ideals towards making a Mini Hybrid with whatever engine suits you best.

I see one of you has visited my website. Thanks. It needs to updated again as I have done a few things since summer. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I can find time. I tried the other day and wrote a bunch of stuff and the site timed me out and I lost it all, therefore a time out on my part is due to get my brain back into it.

[MattG]

i assume andy is doing the same as the vauxhall kits , he will be using allegro CV joints , which have a larger spline than the mini ones.

Matt

Welcom on board Strudel! (Jerry)

Nice informative web site.

Look forward to your future contributions, I hopefully will be coming to the Mini 45 USA, so maybe I'll see you there.

Cheers

Colin A-B :D

[andy@amt]

it was the taper down from vtec to mini thats prob turbo mini 200 + at the drive pot and not the flywheel?

[MattG]

i guess the difference between a-series and vtec/vauxhall is that the torque is ALLOT more , could be wrong.

and swaping to allegro CV joints should not cost that much , it only cost me a tenner from the scrap yard. so i am not sure why SAE dont go this route as well

Matt

[MattG]

yep they just plug stright in , the only thing you have to watch is the CV boots can be quite close to the hub (eg rub on full lock etc)

what makes me laugh is that us AMT frame people must be buying more than the allego owners club !! :lol:

[BassAddict]

That looks like a very nice frame indeed !!! I take it from this thread that Andy's VTec frame at AMT is also now ready ???
Also, welcome to the forums Strudel - think we've emailed each other before about the frame you mentioned !
Rich

[FeEBLe]

Hmmm, trying to work out a way of sorting the steering rack problems.

How about if i convert to LHD, and then have it chain driven to RHD? Has this been done before?

[strudel]

Sounds like an interesting concept. As long as you can anchor the steering shaft in a bearing/bushing and cover any sort of mechanism that connects steering shaft to steering rack input shaft.

The other question would be if this kind of system would be as tight as normal sterring or would have some risidual sloppyness?

If we were all rich and had every possible resource available you could do fly by wire as in modern aircraft. I say this tongue in cheek as fly by wire is really an electrical impulse down the wire to a servo that operates whatever it's supposed to that traditional real cables used to do. Does that make sense. FWIW!!

[FeEBLeUK]

Sorted most of it now with a few bodyshops, going to be using belts similar to cam belts i think, and probably two, incase one breaks, as a safety backup. As for the slackness problem, there will be some tensioners. This is all for definate now! Just need to make sure i can get a frame imported from him which he is getting a price for!

[strudel]

Sounds like the deal to work. Timing belts go around a zillion times in their lifetime. I wouldn't think they would wear out with what you will be doing. Post some pics when the time comes.

[Geehawk]

Is a cam belt arrangement going to be strong enough?? I mean in terms of stretching or jumping teeth.
A cam belt is driving something without a huge amount of resistance really, compare that with the amount of resistance provided by a set of tyres on asphalt in a slow moving parking manouver, I would have thought that slipping a tooth would be very easy to do with the forces envolved. Especially with a tyre up against a curb.....

If you can get it to work it would be good though, as with the right sprockets you could have a quickrack. Hell go for a gearchange on the rack drive and you can have different gearing for driving and parking :wink:

Graham

[FeEBLeUK]

Ohhh. just spoke to him again. Aparently, i can use a rhd steering rack, but it would mean cutting a bit of the flooring out. When the subframe arrives ill play about with it to sort the best solution. May have to do something similar to the bulkhead modifications for a turbo mini engine! woooo standard front end :D

[MiniMike]

Not sure what the issue is with the Mini CVs as I am using them with no problem. The Mini driveshafts are smaller diameter that the Honda ones, but I had them mated together at a local racing shop and they work fine. There are close up pictures of them on my website. minimikebc.tripod.com

[bdcam]

As MiniMike said, I am not sure what the issue with Mini CVs is, but I do know that the outer end of the stock Mini axle shaft has a circlip set in a groove near the inside end of the splines (which acts as a stop for the joint), and that groove creates a spot that is weaker than the rest of the shaft. The axles I had fabricated to go with my sub-frame are built by a US aftermarket maker of Honda axles, and they eliminated the groove and circlip, and replaced it with a machined shoulder to keep the CV joint in place. It may be that the problems some folks have had with their axles are related to that groove.

Brian Campbell

[MiniMike]

I just posted a picture of my driveshafts in the gallery. You can see the size difference and the joint between the Honda and the Mini shafts.

Brian, how are you making out with the frames? Has Gunner bought a frame from you? IF so do you know what progress he has made?

[strudel]

Hey Brian, Good to see you post here. My progress is in small increments and might be stalled til after Xmas. I'll have to drop you a note again.

[MarkLD]

As bdcam has said, the weak point on the mini setup is the circlip groove on the CV end of the driveshaft. I had my shafts made with the groove removed and it now locates via a taper, the manufacturer was then happy to rate the shaft upto 300bhp which should cover all tuning avenues for a NA Vauxhall motor.

[FeEBLeUK]

hi brian!

Its james here whos been emailing you about the subframe, just run into a few problems but just wanted you to know that its still definate that i will buy and import one from you in the new year when you have one ready, i just want to make double sure of everything. Got to plan most things, just worried that one hadnt been completed before. At the moment im still waiting for feedback from some of the manifold fabricating companies, at the moment it looks like the exhaust will be external of the front grill!

just wanted to let you know i am not going to let you down!

Thanks alot

James

[bdcam]

Hi all,

My posts are a bit erratic, as I am powering my PC with generator power... we are still without power from the recent windstorm.

Mike, I delivered the first three sub-frames some time ago, and one was to Gunnar. He has done some assembly work, but has some other irons in the fire related to selling some Minis that have prevented him from putting it all together yet. He does excellent work, so I am very interested in seeing his interpretation of a VTEC-Mini.

As to the other two frames, one went to a friend of my son, here in Seattle, who is also not moving at a very fast pace, and the third to another Brian in Wichita, Kansas who had been waiting for a number of years for a suitable sub-frame. He also is moving slowly due to other commitments. So, no finished cars yet.

I am just finishing a lot of five sub-frames for customers from Canada to California. Not having any power does not help the process.

Strudel, I look forward to hearing from you. I know what you mean about the holidays slowing progress. Things "family" , "work" , "shopping", "eating" and "sleeping" sure can take time away from these Mini projects. Oh well, all in good time.

James, good to her from you. Sounds like you are looking at the right things, and planning it all out ahead of time is a wise thing to do, in my opinion. I look forward hearing of your plans, I will be here when you are ready.

All for now,
Happy Holidays to you all,

Brian

[Northern Boy]

Just wanted to say that for all the hassel of buying a frame from the USA, getting it shipped over, then having to work out where and how the cooling system will fit (by the look of the subframe there will be no room at the front). is it really worth the extra cost? for a set of metro brakes and some wheels??

i've seen some pics of a similar looking subframe from Australia but only uses the SOHC engine instead. This had no room for a front mounted radiator, so they used two smaller side mounted things atached to each other at right angles. Cooling my Vtec is the most problamatic thing i have had to deal with, my advice is the bigger the radiator the better!!

Also a point about your wheels; running a mini with standard width on 13x7 wheels will handle like a bag of sh*te. this is why you find most mini owners after good corner ability using 10's or at a push 12 inch wheels.

Having your wheels spaced out by a uk frame gives the car a wider footprint and with 13 inch wheels gives excellent handling aswell.

Just thought i'd give an argument for not buying it.

[FeEBLeUK]

The price of the frame including drive shafts and including shipping is about the same as the cost of a UK frame. Will also save quiet a bit because i wont have to pay to get the nose lengthened. There are alot of technicalities, such as moving the steering rack will create bump steer, but brian is really helpfull and will help me with suggestions. it will mean welding in a box section into the bulk head to accomodate the steering rack though.

[FeEBLeUK]

THe ringmini one seems to be a single overhead cam though? Are the mounts the same?

[duck]

Don't forget that AMT will have their frame ready in the new year, it will allow the use of a standard length round nose.

[FeEBLeUK]

are you sure though? i heard that it was just a rumour, plus would it mean needing coilovers?

[MiniMike]

here is a link to the Mini Mania board and a topic with another frame built by someone in Florida. He has posted some good pictures...

http://www.minimania.ca/web/threadid/49319/InfoID/1/SiteMessages/16/msgthread.cfm

[duck]

Check out this thread:
http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=177

I called AMT the other day and they confirmed that the frame kit will be ready in January, VTEC will fit in the standard length round nose and use mini wheels and suspension.

[MiniMike]

It will be interesting to see how close the AMT frame comes to the one offs that are now popping up. And how he has dealt with the intake manifold and alternator under the standard length round nose.

What a way to break my viginity :!: ..Instead of posting a stimulating and thought provoking ditty, here I'am using ten minutes of my time thinking about Lft2Rgt drives....

Heres my 'What if'...

...you take a shortened mini steering column (Rhd car)and attach to drive spline of the rack bolted to the floor inside the car [haha, can you see where I'm going with this? then stop reading NOW];
afix to the Lhd spline poking through the floor with a 'modded' fixing["I don't know. I thought this was pretending!. Avoid masking tape and a coat hanger". [you're still reading ain't you?]

This will do away with any slack belts, chains or cotton reels with elastic bands. Stick a piece of your favorite carpet over the 'bump'.
*hey presto/stand back and pat self on back*

-- :idea: note to self--
patent office in morning!

and finally^ Hello all. "Long time reader, first time poster" :D

[desperate in portland]

Ok I'm so psyched that somone so close makes a frame that fits. I'd love to order but cant seem to find an email. Mr. Camble if youre reading id love to talk. toonkeeper@hotmail.com

[Mini1380]

Try this..... bdcam@blarg.net

Desperate in Portland,

Ean, I got your e-mail, and have tried a number of times to send you some info in a reply, but it is always returned. Problem with your e-mail account? Or do you have another way to contact you?

Brian Campbell