Webers on a 16v head

how do u get a spark? i know the normal 16v injections use a coil pack or sumink but cant figure out how to do it with carbs!

all help will be much appretiated

[Geehawk]

You will need an ECU to run the ignition, as there is no proper dizzy setup for the 16v K series.

[MiniGT5]

Cant you just bolt a dizzy in the end on the cam cover like Matt did with his Eco-Tech?

Or alternativly I have heard of people modding the rover ECU and loom so it only does the ignition and ignors the fueling.

GT5 :)

[Geehawk]

Well, in effect there is a dizzy already, but it does just do that, distribute the spark, the ecu generates it, so you would need an ECU of some form to decide when to generate the spark. I have heard of people just using the ignition side of the Mems ECU, but given that this was designed to work with the fuel ingection setup, I have serious doubts that it would be anything like approaching the optimium required for carbs, and you cant change it.

I suppose you could replace this 'distributor' with something else that does the lot, but it would need a bit of fabfrication to fit as no K has one fitted that will just bolt on, and it again would not be reworked for the 16v K, as I doubt it would be anything like the right advance etc for a 16v K.

Would be nice to see it done more though.

Sadly the only one I know of, the ex Shane Fippence car from Mini Mag, was apparently written off a few weeks ago. :(

[MattG]

does the rover ECU work of a crank sensor ?

Matt

[Geehawk]

Yes. There are a few different 'pattern' flywheels depending on engine, spi or Mpi etc.

[MiniGT5]

So you cant just nick the carb / dizzy etc of a 1.4 8V?

I chalenge sombody to make it work (on the cheep of course)

GT5 :)

[MattG]

So you cant just nick the carb / dizzy etc of a 1.4 8v (8v ok, 16v better)?

I chalenge sombody to make it work (on the cheep of course)

GT5 :)

i can't see why that should not work , even if it envolves a little machining work

Matt

[Geehawk]

Thats all very well if you are capable of a little machining work. But is a dizzy from a 70 or less bhp 8v motor going to work anything like correctly on a 16v what should be 95+bhp engine.??

I doubt it, but then again I find the injection works fine :wink:

I,ve made a block to mount a mini dizzy into a honda sohc driving off the end of the cam. It took a bit off work but was pretty straight forward. I used the mini electronic dizzy cos I know a guy who is demon with advance curves on these!

and I know how it works!....(hate electronics and stuff!)

and I've got lots of spares!

[MiniGT5]

Thats all very well if you are capable of a little machining work. But is a dizzy from a 70 or less bhp 8v (8v ok, 16v better) motor going to work anything like correctly on a 16v what should be 95+bhp engine.??

I doubt it, but then again I find the injection works fine :wink:

I cant see why not as it is quite possible to tune the 1.4 8v to over 100+ BHP using the standard dizzy on the metro, so the BHP is now in the same reigon, what difference should the 8/16v make?

GT5 :)

[MiniGT5]

Thats all very well if you are capable of a little machining work. But is a dizzy from a 70 or less bhp 8v (8v ok, 16v better) (8v (8v ok, 16v better) ok, 16v better) motor going to work anything like correctly on a 16v what should be 95+bhp engine.??

I doubt it, but then again I find the injection works fine :wink:

I cant see why not as it is quite possible to tune the 1.4 8v (8v ok, 16v better) to over 100+ BHP using the standard dizzy on the metro, so the BHP is now in the same reigon, what difference should the 8/16v make?

GT5 :)

This 8v ok, 16v better thing is starting to get annoying, look at the way it is effecting the quote above!

Arrrhhh, i'm going mad!

GT5 :)

[MattG]

lol , ok i will remove it :)

Matt

[Geehawk]

Wondered what the hell was going on there :lol:

As to the dizzy thing. I dont know really I'm just guessing. I've never seen or heard of an 8v (wait for it) K series with 100+ bhp, but given that the dizzys on minis are usually modded when power increases of this order are done, I assumed that this sort of power hike would mean the 8v job was operating out of its area....

I'd like to see someone get this working, but myself would go for an ignition only ECU if fitting Webers. Then as I said, I dont know why anyone would want to... carbs good, fuel injection better :?: :wink:

Graham

[MattG]

they are only modded to change the timing curve .. this can be done without to much work by changing weights and springs inside the dizzy.

will need timing light though

Matt

right, spoke to one of the mechanics at work about this (work for rover) and he sed if i use the dizzy of one of the 1800 mg tf's then it would supply me with the spark and the timing would be spot on. ive got the webers on the engine now and all the engine is built up ready to go in the car. even got a bit of NOS running on the standard 1.1 but will swap that over to the 1400 of course.

if i cant get the 16v running properly on a 1.1 8v carbs wiring loom then ill try the ecu option!

[Geehawk]

But the MGfs use the MEMs system too, so they wont have a dizzy either.

Why would you want to?

Stu.

[MiniGT5]

Why would you want to?

Stu.

if its mechanical, when it goes wrong you can physically see where the problem is.

if its electrical, your buggerd.

+ twin webers look and sound better than an injection setup.

GT5 :)

I disagree. MEMS system is hardly rocket science! :roll: And even if you don't understand the system, take the ECU to a Rover dealer and have the fault diagnosed!

To be honest, when the bonnet is closed and you are driving along, who gives a toss how it looks?

Reminds me of the luddites who go ripping out the injection gubbins from SPi Minis..

[Richard]

Luddite was the word I was going to use, you beat me to it. Throttle bodies look good and in my opinion sound better that webers and the setting up is soooo much easier but each to their own!!

[Geehawk]

Hear hear!

The only running problems I ever had with the A series turned out to be electrical anyway :roll:

im am doing it with carbs because i had good experience with mini engines and used to have a 1293 on a single 45 and i like the tunablilty of them!

Hmm fair enough but no offence, the K series isn't remotely like an A series and categorically runs far better using EFi. MEMS is fine for a fairly standard tune but if you want real "tunability" an Emerald M3D ECU is highly recommended! http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
I just cannot see the benefit of putting carburettors on a engine with a well designed, properly calibrated injection system -tisn't just for emmission control reasons manufacturers stopped using carburettors! ;)

MPiGTi.

[MiniGT5]

I disagree. MEMS system is hardly rocket science! :roll: And even if you don't understand the system, take the ECU to a Rover dealer and have the fault diagnosed!

To be honest, when the bonnet is closed and you are driving along, who gives a toss how it looks?

Reminds me of the luddites who go ripping out the injection gubbins from SPi Minis..

Hey I don't take kindly to being called a luddite!

Anyhow when it goes wrong take the ECU to a rover dealer? Thats if you can still drive the car with a buggered ECU and why pay someone at rover to do the job of fixing an ECU because nobody else has the diagnostic tool?

now with carbs if they go wrong the rover dealer is out of the equation, you can take the car to any old grease monkey and get it fixed. I can even fix it myself with out having to pay anyone.

Also how often do you here of people going back to rover because their carb wont allow them to start the car? or because the carb wont idle properly?

I do agree that I nice expensive TB setup with fully programable ECU does look and sound nice but they cost way to much and again there are lots ov problems because thay have so many dam engine sensors.

GT5 :)

If the only problems you had with your a series were electrical geehawk, then less electrics = less problems!

luddite and proud of it! (if the spi mini set up was so good how come 90bhp is the absolute max you can get out of it...with carbs 150+!!!!)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Geehawk]

if the spi mini set up was so good how come 90bhp is the absolute max you can get out of it...with carbs 150+!!!

Nobody said the Spi Mini was good (did they?), but we are talking modern (ish) engines here. No one disputes, that carbs might be better for an old A series, but who on this board is using anything but fuel injection for their "modern" engines?

Besides I thought that the A series injection was restricted because nobody makes a decent fully programmable ECU for the A series.

Oh and before anyone says it. I know the K series is now 14 (ish) years old and not "modern" when compared to other engines. :P

fair enought guys i see what your saying here! i work for rover so even if i did have an ecu i would just get one of the boys at work to sort it out for me! i like weber carbs! they look and sound the part and not many people have them in cars like minis and metros! i just want a higher powered car and ive got a set of webers sitting on my desk! mite aswell add them together if sumbody can help me!
i mite even use an 8 valve engine because it would be a hell of a lot easier as most of the 8 vlavlke engines where ran on carbs neway!

i not good with electrics but and good with mechanics

Anyhow when it goes wrong take the ECU to a rover dealer? Thats if you can still drive the car with a buggered ECU and why pay someone at rover to do the job of fixing an ECU because nobody else has the diagnostic tool?


Unplug ECU, unscrew screws holding ECU to car, remove ECU, take ECU to anyone with access to a MEMS fault code reader. -I know of at least 3 locally that aren't an MG Rover dealer who charge about £30 for a diagnostic print out which will tell you exactly where the fault is so theres no faffing round having to strip down and rebuild carburettors then having to set them up correctly etc etc.
Sorry but anybody who rates a carburerettor over EFi is certainly a luddite. They are both antiquated and pretty inefficient. These days most "grease monkeys" with a decent garage will have access and the necessary training to work on EFi based cars as the number of carburettors is in steep decline. Each to their own but you can keep your needles, jets and colourtunes. :P

MPiGTi.

PS, Geehawk, the K-series engine certainly is still a modern engine. What about the VW EA827 unit that was first used in the early Seventies? Still used (albiet modernised) today. The current 2.3 Ford Galaxy engine is based on the old Ford Sierra DOHC engine, itself a development of the Pinto engine of the early 70s! Don't get me started on BMW's 6 cylinder engines.. ;)

[MiniGT5]

Unplug ECU, unscrew screws holding ECU to car, remove ECU,

Wait for a bus
Catch the bus

take ECU to anyone with access to a MEMS fault code reader.

:wink:
Correct me if I am wrong but you cannot drive you car to the dealer if the ECU is buggered or if the ECU is disconnected for the car, where as if your carb will not idle correctly at least you can still drive it?

GT5 :)

[BassAddict]

Have two cars !! The misses and I have got 6 at the mo - 5 of them minis :lol: !!!
Rich

Unplug ECU, unscrew screws holding ECU to car, remove ECU,

Wait for a bus
Catch the bus

take ECU to anyone with access to a MEMS fault code reader.

:wink:
Correct me if I am wrong but you cannot drive you car to the dealer if the ECU is buggered or if the ECU is disconnected for the car, where as if your carb will not idle correctly at least you can still drive it?

GT5 :)

Depends how badly buggered your carb is!

As you've mentioned, wait for a bus, catch the bus. Or if you're feeling flush, take a taxi! :wink:

MPiGTi