Standard ECU, Hondate or Megasquirt ?!!

[BassAddict]

Right - still trying to sort out this ECU malarky !
Basically, I've got a B18C4 lump - think this originally comes from the Civic 1.8vti aerodeck - but I bought it without an ECU as I'd been lead to believe the standard ECU would be useless as I'm running a custom inlet manifold with a pair of twin Jenvey throttle bodies.
From reading a few things, I've now got a few options - bearing in mind the money pit is emptying fast !
The most expensive is motec - no point as its about £1500 !!
Then there's DTA, around £750
Then Hondata S200 - from what I've read this might do the job - and is only about $300 I think - sounds too good to be true ?!!!
Then I could get hold of a Honda ECU, and try modifying it - dunno how much I should pay for an ECU or which one to get, or how much I might end up spending getting it running properly :? !
Lastly, there's the megasquirt, or rather ultra megasuirt as this is what I'd need, but its not available yet, and so there is enough info yet.
Main concerns are I dont want to attach a crank trigger disc to my nice shiney new Unorthodox Racing crank pulley - so ideally I need whatever solution to use the standard sensors - as far as I'm aware - that rules out the DTA as the Honda crank sensor is, I belive, 24 pole - not the convenient Ford, Rover or Vauxhall trigger patterns that most UK based aftermarket ECU's are for - also dont know yet if Ultra Mega Squirt would be able to use this.
Another 'desirable' but not essential thing would be ability of using high impedance injectors (I've got some 440cc Nippon Denso ones spare !! A bit big for now, but who knows what the future holds!!)
Thinks thats a long enough post for now !!!!
Thanks for reading if you made it this far !!!
Rich

[nominous]

I'd been lead to believe the standard ECU would be useless as I'm running a custom inlet manifold with a pair of twin Jenvey throttle bodies.

Seems to be the common theme, but folks on honda-tech.com have had some success with chipped ecus. If I could find some GSXR ITB's I would be doing this right now, this weekend :lol:

Then Hondata S200 - from what I've read this might do the job Then I could get hold of a Honda ECU, and try modifying it - dunno how much I should pay for an ECU or which one to get, or how much I might end up spending getting it running properly :? !


The Hondata is worth the money, totlaly. Factor into that a donor ECU, but $300 is the starter package. If you want to self tune it the costs add up for the software, then add on launch control, nitrous and other nice bits.

Or, you can go find a P30 ecu then head over to www.pgmfi.org
You will need a ROM burner (I use one from www.willem.org) and a soldering iron.
The P30 ECU is the most discovered one at the moment, and can pretty much do all that the Hondata one does, but you have to give it a go really and experiement a lot. Lots of RR time.

If it was my choice I'd go the self chipped P30 route. You are sticking an engine into a car that wasnt designed to take it, seems fitting you do the tuning too.
Yeah it would be more DIY to use a megasquirt, but as it stand's, the Honda ECU has many more features (correct me if Im wrong, but the Megasquirt doesnt have a timing map yet?), and Honda did spend a small country's GDP developing it :wink:

Another 'desirable' but not essential thing would be ability of using high impedance injectors (I've got some 440cc Nippon Denso ones spare !! A bit big for now, but who knows what the future holds!!)


Dont worry too much about that one with a Honda or Hondata ECU, you can pretty much use either.

[MattG]

hmmm... you know what i am going to say :) , but ... i am not sure on you what money you have etc, is you project going to be finished before you get it on the road ? or is it a get it on the road as soon as possible and then finish/improve things ... ??

As i am just thinking that the normal MS would do , as i thought honda engine can/did have a dizzy ?

so you could build a normall MS for less than 100 quid , run the enigne on that to get the car on the road ??

just an idea ...i am allways willing you come over with my ECU and have a play.

Matt

[B20GT]

FFS!!!!!! Buy a HONDA ECU :x , They aint too expensive, either go to Dastek for a unichip, see Dave about writing you a programme for the standard one or go Hondata

Hondata is $500ish for what you want, and is available for a whole host of goodies to be added( And it is a HONDA ECU, which is upgraded)

Dave is X amount- not gonna be mega bucks, and a ECU is about £70

Dastek is £500+ u need a ECU @ £70.........This is reprogrammeable and done on their rollers, by Qualified tecnicians!!!!!! It has PROVEN GAINS, it is the dearest out my three options, but the most useful, as the system can be taken out the car and put on another, and doesn't modify your ECU in any way!

I'm sure this mega squirt is a really good bit of kit, but as Dave said, Honda spent more than a small countrys GDP on developing the Management system, are you honestlt tryin to say they waisted billions when you can build a ECU for £200-400 :shock: Pull the other one!!!!! :x

You lot complain about, It aint up to scratch, it don't feel right, I want more------- Pay the money and get the right stuff, This aint A series engines we are building here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Japs over engineer everything for a reason!!!!!!!

Rant over :oops: But seriously, for an extra £100-200 you can get the right gear :roll:

[Colin.ab]

Just a thought on this subject,

How do you go about maping an MS? is there a basic program to load?

As it took over 4 hours to set up my DTA on rollers, I was just wondering how you set up a home built MS, as Im building another project car, and need to look once again at ECU's.

C.ab

Crank sensor teeth, and bracket for the DTA - apologies for the rusty photos, still have to paint them yet.

http://www.16vminiclub.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20%25Crank%20sensor%20teeth2.jpg
http://www.16vminiclub.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20%25Crank%20Sensor%20Bracket.jpg

[BassAddict]

Well, I think its gotta be down to modified Honda (a la PGMFI.org) opr Hondata !
Matt, the budget uisn't too strict yet - I could still afford DTA if I wanted to - but so far everything I've paid someone for I've had my pants pulled down - not just by the one company I always mentione, but by also by the guy I bought my engine from (who used to post on MiniHybrids) and also a fair few others - just think the time has come to learn as much as it takes to do as much as I can myself !! From reading the PGMFI site, it seems I could modify the standard Honda ECU to work with what I've got, and it would, as Nominous and B20GT say, be from the outset far better deigned to run a honda engine - could also well avoid the 'slightly low' mpg some DTA on VTEC peeps are getting when tanking it on track days.
As for the Hondata route - I can't figure out for defo if you need a donor ECU, and their site also says "For OBDII add approx $450" - could really do with a dummies guide to Honda engine managemement and tuning as I'm not sure which ECU mine would've orinally had, and which ones will work, or what to pay for stuff!
No dis-respect to anyone running DTA, but Nominous I reckon could really help here, and be a big help to alot of us in future - if we can modify a standard £70 ECU instead of buying a £700 ECU to run a B18 with ITB's then good times are coming !
Hmm, yet another long post from me - too pissed again so I'm waffling now !! To sum up though, sounds like a home-modified Honda ECU is the way to go - just need to know exactly what one to buy, what to get to modify it, and how much I should be prepared to pay for the ECU ?!! :?
Rich

[B20GT]

You do need a donor for Hondata, you send one over, they send mapped one back :D I was just on there sight, see how I was telling you OBDII is the hardest to tune---$450 extra proves this :wink:

Ask Dave what yours should have run, I think it is OBDI, if it was OBDII, buy a OBDI and get the harness adaptor :wink: Still cheaper :D

[MarcE30]

Ah it was so much easier in the A series points world!!!!!!

[BassAddict]

Is there anyway of knowing which type an engine would need, ie, by what sensors it has etc ??
Rich

[BassAddict]

Points would be much easier - but where's the fun / challenge in easier ?!! Mind you, this whole ECU malarky is enough to make to think of putting the 1100 back in !!!

[MattG]

also .. this hondaDATA ecu thing , you have to send it away to get it mapped eveytime ?? sounds like the engine will never be mapped spot on as you can't map like that.

Matt

[B20GT]

go to www.hondata.com you buy the Mapping stuff aswell, or you give them your spec and they map accordingly. READ first :wink:

and the advantage of Honda ECU over DTA is standard injection and COST!!!

[Minimivic]

Most breakers with throw in the ecu loom and ancilleries with the engine. This is what happened when i bought mine.
If all else fails a completet loom and ecu from a breaker is £ 250 so far cheaper than DTA, also no need for expensive mapping.Honda have done that for you (exhaust and filter done seem to worry it too much).

Then you can go tuning the ecu with a VAFC, Unichip or Hondata for more power.
We will see how my car performs againt Darrens on saturday, but should I take out the 150Kg of stereo first to even things up :shock: . Also whats fuel economy like and around town driving manners, etc?

[MattG]

go to www.hondata.com you buy the Mapping stuff aswell, or you give them your spec and they map accordingly. READ first :wink:

and the advantage of Honda ECU over DTA is standard injection and COST!!!

ok sorry .. went to read now .. but the price soon adds up once you added some of the extras on which are all free with MS.

also you have to buy hardware to upgrade the actuall ECU software if a new version comes out.

also .. you can't seem to adjust the fuel/timing while the engine is running ..which adds allot of time to the tunning. and when you are paying per hour for the rolling road... unless i read wrong

Matt

[Minimivic]

Darren,

The Apexi VAFC2 was £ 160 direct from the states.

Personally it wasnt worth the money, except the fact I have lowered the vtec point and gained 12Hp in the midrange about 5500rpm so feels stronger when overtaking and between gear changes.

[Colin.ab]

I thought the only people who run low mpg on DTA vtecs are people who have not had them fully mapped.

Yes, I used both tanks of petrol (£32) just coming back from Wakefield to Milton Keynes. – 140 miles!

Steve Greenald @ Road & Track said that each car has to be mapped individually, as there can be so many variations even between what appear to be identical engines, even down to what fuel you are using, as mine had BP Ultimate in at the time, Shell Optimax petrol makes a noticeable difference to the power. – It’s not as quick

Interesting topic on petrol in old cars:

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/fuels.htm

[Minimivic]

Interesting, I get approx 200 miles to a 7.5 gallon tank. and it doesnt seem to matter how hard I drive it.

[nominous]

Honda ECU's you ideally want to go OBD1 for self tuning. P30 is the best, P28 is pretty close behind.

OBD2 is great for economy but a right royal PITA for tuning. It would seem even using a vtec controller it will reset a lot of the alterations as its designed to meet loads of emissions targets :roll:

The money you can spend on a VTEC controller to modify setting can be spent on a ROM burner and the right ECU for the job. You'll have a lot more gains going that route.

Hondata requires a donor ECU. Its just a few modifications to a standard ECU to give the hondata features and the little security box which stops you ripping it off.

You can run an ODB2 (95+ IIRC)) engine on an OBD1 ECU (92-95) without any changes except for a wiring adapter harness.

To run an OBD0 (89-91) engine you will need a new dizzy (ODB1) as well as a slightly different wiring harness.

Both harnesses can be had off ebay for around $150ish, or you can make your own with the appropriate connectors.

ODB0 ECU's can be chipped, but the software is still underdevelopment and rather slow. The OBD1 works and most VTEC cars in the USA are OBD1 (they never got OBD0 VTEC so any cars with it are DIY swaps) so there isnt a particually big effort compared to OBD1 to get it working correctly.

HTH (and isnt confusing :lol: )

[BassAddict]

Yeah, that Hondata stuff certainly does add-up if you want all the stuff for doing it yourself - well out the window goes hondata !
Cheers for all the replies so far everyone !! Just off to find out about these eprom burners and the like now - time to make myself feel really confused by reading some of the pgmfi site !! :? :shock: :?:
Rich

[BassAddict]

Hmm, looks like enough choices for Eprom programmers alone ! Fancy writing a dummies guide Nominous ?!! I knew I shouldn't have quit college after one year (I was doing Electrical / Electronic Engineering) !!! Doh !
Rich

[MattG]

Just be cafull with the eprom programmers, as its going to add allot of hassle when changing fuel etc... but i am only clued up on MS , which you jusst use a serial connection to set all the fueling etc...

also when a new version of the MS software comes out .. you just use the serail cable again to upload the new firmware

Matt

[Colin.ab]

I’m still concerned as to how you can set up a MS accurately unit with out using a rolling road, or just obtaining a chip through the post, how can a general program through the post/download suit all engines?

My car had a basic map installed by Geoff, but when Steve Greenald had worked on it for 4 hours on his RR, it was like driving a completely different car.

How can this be done on MS or just remaping another chip without RR it and to get the best performance from that individual engine?

C.ab

[MattG]

MS is the same as all the others in that area colin , i just may have not made it clear , you will still need to either go on a RR or using a WB oxygen sensor to tune the engine to 100% .


i am only saying MS helps you tune it more esaily without reprogramming any roms etc.. you can do it all on the RR , or with a WB while out on the road.

Matt

[BassAddict]

Good point regarding Eprom's - doesn't exactly make it easy to tune, plus my engine wont have any of the idle control stuff thats on the standard manifold. Hmmm. Plus it even more stuff to have to learn if I have to know how to reprogram Eprom's and learn all the honda management into such detail ! Might just have to get a bigger piggy bank and do some saving !
I might buy the Ultra Mega Squirt when it comes out and see if thats any use. Since they're so cheap I can still buy it and change my mind later - can always sell it on Ebay if I dont use it !
Rich

[MattG]

just say when you have the engine in and ready to start and i will pop round with my MS and start it for you :)

the only down side for UMS is that if it does get finished in the next 6 months ..it will be sometime before the user base gets up to what MS is , so it MAY taking longer to sort out problems etc.. as not many people will have used it.

MS has been running for a number of years and there are lots of people using it and i have never failed to get a problem fixed with a few hours from the current users.

Matt

[Colin.ab]

MS is the same as all the others in that area colin , i just may have not made it clear , you will still need to either go on a RR or using a WB oxygen sensor to tune the engine to 100%

Ok got that now, Does MS have a forum of users or anywhere else that I can see various engines that it has been used on?

C.ab

[MattG]

colin .. go here for all the info : http://www.megasquirt.info

under that site is the a list of cars/engines where MS has been used :

http://www.megasquirt.info/itruns.htm

hope that helps

Matt

[nominous]

The development route is currently working on in place programming. Real time datalogging in car with a laptop and the ability to change ECU parameters on the fly, with the engine running :D
Couple this is datalogging with a wideband O2 and it's hopefully going to get the ability to self tune in the near future.

Admittedly having to program and swap is a PITA, but with a ZIF socket and only the centre screw on the ECU cover it aint too bad.
I use 27C256 EEPROM's to be precise, so no wastage or having to buy lots of chips. Can get them farily cheaply too.

As for a beginners guide, best to read the FAQ at the www.pgmfi.org site first.


I also dont want to come across as MS bashing. Its something I'd actually like to try out given the time, money and the right car going spare :lol:

[MattG]

I also dont want to come across as MS bashing.

you have not ... its allways good to see the different options ... i really want to see someone use MS on a VTEC .. as far as i know it has not been done yet ... i am not saying it can't be done .. just need to trigger the VTEC at the correct Rpm ... and thats simple enough ...

Matt

[BassAddict]

Hmm, looks like I could use the Megasquirt for the FI side of things, that just leaves the ignition. All the various ignition systems designed to work with Megasquirt seem to require a Ford style crank trigger (36 tooth) - something it would be 'nice' to avoid using, but not essential.
From what I can gather, the Megasquirt just needs the equivalent of a Tach signal to run.
Dave (Nominous) - aside from the FI side of things , do you have a good knowledge of how the Honda ignition side of things work ? I've been looking on MSD's website to see what could be used from there, but for all I know there may be a way around this - ie, cheaper ! From what I can tell - if I can work out the ignition then the Megasquirt seems do-able (there's some spare I/O's on the Motorolla processor they use that I could potentially use for the VTEC solenoid).
I know the Honda ECU would be good - but to get it running right with my engine it needs modifying a bit - and just the stuff to modify it alone (without even buying an ECU in the first place) would cost more than the complete Megasquirt !
Any idea's peeps ?! Sorry for all the questions - never done anything on FI/Ignition before so I'm on a steep learning curve at the mo ! :)
Rich

[MattG]

Hmm, looks like I could use the Megasquirt for the FI side of things, that just leaves the ignition. All the various ignition systems designed to work with Megasquirt seem to require a Ford style crank trigger (36 tooth) - something it would be 'nice' to avoid using, but not essential. Rich

he's coming over to the dark side :)

i will try and clear up the iginition side , the std MS does not do ignition ,
it just works of a tach signal of some kind.

then someone wrote megsquirt'N'spark which uses the Fidle(idle valve) output to control a feed to iginition amplifier which then triggers the coil.

so i am not sure what a honda setup has , i have seen a dizzy on it , so as you said .. you need a tach signal , then feed the Fidle output into a iginition amplifer and then into your coil ,(you might have a iginition amp allready not sure)

And as you said there are two extra outputs that can be used to trigger the VTEC

usefull links :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirtnspark/?yguid=8349860 "
http://www.mini-ms.com - other people have used it , not me ... has the extra outputs built into it. will try this next time i think
thats all you need

Matt

[BassAddict]

Still trying to suus out the ignition malarky - found a few handy places to start looking though - [/img]http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=20 - forum on Honda EMS (yes, another one !!)
Also need to figure out how I'll change ingition timing when the vtec engages ??!
Rich

[MattG]

Also need to figure out how I'll change ingition timing when the vtec engages ??!
Rich

well what ever ECU you go for ... you should be able to set the VTEC to go on at x RPM , and then the ignition would just change the angle at that RPM as well ...

Matt

[nominous]

That's a nice work around, but really, VTEC is dependant on a number of factors. It wont swap cams when first started, but that said Im sure most people here like the rexer's wont rev the nuts off it till its warm.
My crx doesnt get warm on the way to work which means going in the morning I miss my favorite road, but coming home I have something to look forward too :twisted:

[BassAddict]

Good thinking Matt ! Just means I'll have to drive a little carefully for the first 10 minutes - best make sure the misses does too whenever she borrows it (she's planning to every now and then so she can win a few more races on her way to work !!! :lol: )
So then , one fo the spare I/O's on the megasquirt would have to trigger the vtec solenoid at about 4500 rpm, so fuel map and ignition map both need to be quite different after that point.
Looking around, I think my easiest option is going to be to get a 36tooth crank trigger - its just way too complicated without one - not many people have made standalone diy ignition to work with honda's 24 pole dizzy !
Rich

[mininut]

Don't know what you lot are going on about... DTA is the best :P :P and thats only because it's in my car :lol: :lol:

[BassAddict]

It should be for the money ! Mind you - still a lot cheaper than Motec :lol: !!!
After all this, I'll probably come home drunk one night, log on to some site and buy one of them - not that I've got a habit of buying things online when pi$$ed !!! :wink:
Rich

[Geehawk]

Were you when you bought your frame :P

[MarcE30]

wasnt that when you were sober, may be you should be pissed all the time?

only joking! :lol:

[BassAddict]

:lol: !! I wish I was a few sheets to the wind when I bought - it'd be a good excuse !!!
Unforuntely I'm far too impulsive - I was in Derby so the nearest place on the map was AMT - phoned them - but.. lets not go there !!
Next place on the map was P&L, hey presto - it ended up in the boot being taken back to Manc !
Ah well !
At least I've learnt to get a few more specific in future, rather than take someone's word for it !!!
Rich

Oh bugger - another post I've ended up mentioning them ! Ah - but 'twas not me the bought it up !!! :lol:

[mikeb]

:lol:

[BassAddict]

Just got back from Tenerife last night - fortunately the misses wanted to lounge around reading books - so I printed lots of stuff off about Megasquirt - just off to look up wether it can handle two separate fuel maps and a fwe other things I realised I need - since it has several I/O's on-chip that aren't used I need to work out if I can come to compromise as to how the standard Honda ECU works - ie, make it only use the VTEC if engine temp it high enough -also printed an article about the vtec wiring and noticed there's a vtec pressure switch - is this whats used to detect if oil pressure is sufficent ?
Rich

[evolotion]

You could set the v-tec point, leave it set and THEN map up the car, you wil only need one map provided the v-tec point never moves :)

alternatively, if the megasquirt cant cope and u wana move the v-tec point about, run 2 megasquirts :wink:

[BassAddict]

It'd be quite cool to have a 'selector' on the dash - so you could set the vtec on constantly for 1/4 mile type days, then set it back to automatically engaged for road use !! Think I need to worry about getting it to run first though ! And before that, I need to learn a LOT more about engine management/fuelling/ignition !!! Best start saving for that DTA - it will take me less time to save the money than to learn all this and build my own !!!
Rich

[PaulAmes]

Whats wrong with the Honda ECU?!! Sounds like less hassle and how honda intended it to be. :)

[BassAddict]

Biggest problem with the Honda ECU is I haven't got one - and if I did get one, it'd need modifying to cope with the Jenvey throttle bodies and lack of standard inlet manifold components (such as parts of the idle control etc). To get this modified is properly is then almost as much hassle as building and tuning the megasquirt - I'd need Hondata to reprogram it - which then comes back with a few 'standard' maps that'd need rolling road time to get right - and to do that they either need the kit for modifying hondata stuff, or you have to buy a fair few hundred $$'s worth of stuff.
I need the ECU fairy to work her magic while I'm asleep !!! :?
Rich

[MattG]

as long as the VTEC kicks in at X rpm then you will only need one fuel map , thats what the DTA does i am pretty sure of it.

Matt

[BassAddict]

True - just keep getting distracted with "nice" features :D !!!! I'll go back to working out ignition then !!!
Rich

[nominous]

What's the damage on the DTA ? A fully specced Hondata with all features, full throttle shift, launch control, boost control :twisted: datalogging, programming and real time programming works out around £700 plus a donor ECU at Hondata prices. Dealer prices are going to be less.
Plus, you can ditch FTL, FTS and boost and save a couple of hundred off that.

[BassAddict]

About £600 + vat I think for the DTA alone (with no loom or sensors) - so (probably) cheaper if you've not got the donor ECU - plus its gonna be easier / cheaper to get the DTA re-mapped as and when you need to since there'll be more places in the UK that can tune the DTA than can tune Hondata.
There's been some more info posted on the Ultra MegaSquirt - still need a few more details on it before I make a decision ! :)
Rich

[BassAddict]

Matt, do you know anything about ordering Megasquirt (and EDIS) from the UK - sure I found some info at one point that lead to part of your site but can't find it again now - figure I might aswell get it ordered and start making it - I can always sell it if I have to go for something else in the end !
Rich

[BassAddict]

Just had a thought - might require a bit of electronics help though, if I'm right, the honda engine uses a 24 pole trigger in the distributor, although some things I've read say its 12 pole - not sure if there's a missing tooth or not. There's also a TDC and Cylinder sensor - again not sure what these outputs provide. Any hoo, my way of thinking is, and I might be wrong, but I'm sure I remember a circuit diagram from my old electronics days of a frequency multiplier - could these be used to create the equivalent of a 36-1 crank signal from the honda's standard stuff ??
Any one ever turned the engine over and measured what signals come from where - I could do with a sort of logic table of the sensors relative to engine position ?!!!!!
This was an idea that came to me after many ales so I might be way off the mark !!!! :lol:
Rich

[BassAddict]

Well, the kit is ordered - hopefully I should have it in about a month or so - guess I'd better get back to work on the car itself - hmm, just need a bit of spare time now !!! If Matt's summer meet is still on in Leeds I might be bringing a PCB to test if thats ok !?!!!
Rich

[MattG]

you wont regret it :) did bill sort you out then ?
did you order a stimulator ? if not you can borrow mine ?

Matt

[BassAddict]

Nah - didn't bother with the stimulator - figured if youi've got one and you end up in Leeds eventually its only an hours drive !!! :) ! Hope thats ok !
That Dual Table stuff looks interesting - need to have a proper read when I've not had several stella's !!!!
Rich

[kb58]

I'd just find a used stock Honda ECU. At the moment there are "bigger fish to fry" as far as getting the car build, done, and on the street. THEN mess with the ECU after you know what you have. No need to add a big variable to the 300 other variables in your project. Do you really want to get it all "done", only to turn the key and find it doesn't start. Where the heck do you start.

Start with a stock ECU, develop the car, sell (or keep as a spare) the ECU and get whatever ECU you want...

[BassAddict]

I must admit its tempting to get the honda ecu just so I fire the engine up and find out if it actually works - given the rest of the problems I've had with where I got the engine I wouldn't be suprised...
Rich