Torque steer...and donor car... and howdy! ;)

[99fusion]

Howdy to the forum! Yup, another newbie wants to go zuki... but wouldn't think of posting without having spent many sleepless nights reading the entire forum.. needless to say, i'm feeling highly inspired. I'm looking to rebuild a retro yet modern, ultimately refined mini to cruise long into the 21st century, the kind that'll make ya grin when ur at the wheel, and fool the competition. It's not just gotta move, it's gotta schmooove...

mmmm k enuf daydreaming... to the point:

Are any of you guys experiencing torque steer with your suzuki conversions? the engine is always to the far side, and i've yet to see some equal length drive shafts. Doesnt seem very balanced.. tis my main concern so far.

Also, how may ppl are using non gti swifts for their builds? mk1s are pretty rare, and the g13b exists in dohc on non gtis.

I read in a post that mk2s have a bigger g13b - well that was my interpretation at least (skeptical about that - a g13b is a g13b no?). If that's the case, shout if you got one of those under their round nose bonnet succesfully without stretching it! and maybe tip us on how you did it/ if u had any difficulties... would b cool. Or just tell me to look harder :( - to ur heart's content :wink:

Top forum btw (apart from the occasional egomaniac outburst (wont name specifics) :roll: hope they've moved on)

Muchas gracias bonitos 8)

[mrbell]

Whatever you're on, I'll take some...
But seriously, I haven't started hacking away yet, I'm still locating parts and building up my motor. Still, I'd like to throw in my useless percentage of a dollar. As for the equal length driveshafts, I believe going Suzuki fixes that for you. There is a center shaft that connects the diff to the far driveshaft(and supports it in the same plane as the diff), so the angles and such will remain equal.
I'm building a frankenstien motor. I have a bottom end out of a GT twincam G13BA motor. It seems there are alot of designations for the same motors, but this is what I've seen as most common for this. It's the 1298cc block that I believe is the most common in the GT/GTI range. There was also the earlier G13K which I believe was a little larger in displacement at around 1326cc. It's just slightly overbored, but one of the postulated reasons for the decrease in volume was to allow the cyls to be bored if wear or damage occured. Anyway, back to my motor. I'm putting a port injection SOHC 16v head off of the later motor(98 and on), designated the G13BB. I'll be rebuilding both but the reason I went with this combination was, the BA bottom end is stronger than the BB bottom end(forged crank, beefier rods) and the pistons already have the proper reliefs. The head is smaller so it will be easier to fit(tho I've not seen too many problems w/ the twincam, I don't like to push my luck here). Also, there are rumors that the SOHC head either flows better or has the potential to flow better(more material to remove when porting) than the DOHC head. Primarily, because it's smaller.
I'll be skimming the block to bring the pistons to 0-deck height and give it a higher compression ratio(aiming for around 12:1). A cove cam will also be going in as well as porting out the intake manifold and throttle body.
All of this will be run by the Microsquirt fuel/ignition computer(an off-shoot of megasquirt but in a smaller, waterproof package)
I'm aiming for about 130hp, but I'm realistically expecting only about 115hp. Either will be a major improvement over the mini's motor especially when coupled w/ a 5 speed transmission and quite a bit less weight.
Speaking of transmissions, you'll probably want to look for a non-GTI transmission w/ a final drive of 3.44(I think). This will give you much better cruising as the GTI transmission will gear you to about 5000rpm at 70mph on 12in rims. Those numbers are from memory, so don't take them as gospel. the 3.44 gives about 3300rpm at 70, if memory serves. Much more tolerable, and I don't think it will affect accelleration that much. I feel it evens out since you'll be spending more time out of gear(shifting) even tho your accelleration in gear will be better with the higher final drives.

[ed4ran]

Hello,
All i can say for the mk2 setup in a std round nose is look at the first topic below this one!!!!!!! :shock:
As Mrbell says, theres a middle shaft that shortens the drivers side shaft to a similar length of the passenger side (can see it in peoples build photos).

From what ive read I think the SOHC 16v head flows better in standard form but with work the DOHC head will flow better, and i think the SOHC head is prone to cracking. :roll:

With the transmissons you can get a final drive from a none GTI model and swap it into the GTI box, i think this is favourable to just using the none GTI box as the GTI box is stronger, so especially if you are tuning the motor you dont want to weaken the box anymore than it is.

MK2 GTI gearbox ratios with 10" wheels:-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.heritage1/tmf/gtigears.JPG

[99fusion]

:oops: erm yeah.. saw that one not long before doing this post! thats sleep deprivation for you (nice install btw).... So a mk2 fits, but is it bigger? I expect, if that were the case, that it would be down to the tranny and/or injection rail.. but thats pure speculation.

The reason i ask is i'm wondering about fitting an aftermarket exhaust header. I read on ssgti.net a decent one will gain u an extra 10-12hp@4500rpm, but they stick out a bit more than the standard one. On the other hand someone on this forum said to stick with the original as it's perfectly efficient (and it's "flatter").

Also i reckon fittng an underdrive crank pulley is a good idea, not just for the power but the lighter weight reduces stresses on the crankshaft. Be kind to ur g13b. [Btw wikipedia section on g13 recommend warming it up before letting your foot loose and keep it freshly oiled (as you would do wiv any beloved motor) cos "it is prone to over heating" => fact or quack?...]

Does the centre shaft exist in standard form, albeit lengthened for the mini, or do you have to use a bit of wizardry and knock it and a shaft bearing housing up?

Sounds like a plan mr bell :D. But y not stick with the DOHC as the extra valves give u a 30hp (!) difference. Either that or double the size of the valve ports for a true frankenstein, but i dunno if it's possible to get valves that big.. But if ur commited, a challenge is a challenge!

:arrow: http://www.ssgti.net/tech.htm

I like that final drive of 3.44 on 12s. I'd like to get to 70 mph at approx 3000 rpm so that sounds like a good choice (if accurate, ill have to get myself one of those GR calc like ed's - handy man [ah the pun! :roll: :lol: ]). I like my current 10s (standard mayfair alloys for now) they're a laugh but its not too good for economy for a mean but green(er) machine. Not to mention the middle east tensions are sending petrol prices sky rocketing, and once they reach a high, it's just another record to break. Also sourcing discs for 10s is tough on the wallet, unless you have easy access to a lathe which unfortunalely i don't. Although, from ur figures ed, just 70mph at under 4000 rpm doesnt seem too bad... a bit more cabin noise tho

[Marcus Nordblom]

Suzuki rd can make you a custom one i was offered this:

"It sticks out about 5 1/2"(It´s the header in stock form). We can build a custom header reducing that length to say 4". It will take us about 10 business days. Including O2 sensor nut and Bolt-on flange so you can bolt on un-bolt it later and installation is easier and lower cost, it will be $219.95+S&H"

Maybe 16vminishop can supply us? :roll:

Marcus

[ed4ran]

Yeah would be good if the 16vminishop could sell them!!!! :D

heres the GTI gearbox with a 3.44 FD and 12" wheels:-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.heritage1/tmf/3.44-12.JPG

[MattG]

would need a car to make one on first.

Matt

[Marcus Nordblom]

Can you knock up a schematic of standard gti diff with 10" wheels? (Thats my current spec)

Thanks
Marcus

[MattG]

is there a market for a new FD for the suzi conversions ?
or are your revs at crusing ok ?

Matt

[mrbell]

A lower final drive might be nice, but I would have prefered a lower 5th gear instead. Keep the accelleration 1-4, and 5 becomes an economy gear.
I have a feeling anything custom like that would end up being prohibitively expenisive tho.

That's interesting about the GTI tranny being stronger. I have not read anything like that. The only suggestion I came across was the cultus MAY have a stronger tranny in the awd setup... I suppose we'll see.

And about the head, I had not heard about cracking, but I'll be leaving the stock valves. They're larger than the GT valves, and everything will get a ceramic coating to keep things cool. That should prevent any sort of cracking. And you don't get an extra 30hp w/ the GT head. The rating on the SOHC 16v head is, I believe 79hp. The GT only has 100hp, so that's 21. And since the SOHC is only running 9:1 compression from the factory, bumping it up to 11 or 12 should net me more than that. I'm also fixing some of the ancillary problems that rob some power, such as the 38mm throttle body and I'm going to see if I can fit the cultus or GT header. Not the best for all out power, but it'll keep underhood temps down, keep things a bit quieter, and will probably fit a bit better. The trick is the mounting is different so I have to see if I can squish it all together.

[ed4ran]

Is the first pic not of a standard GTI gearbox on tens???
from the gear ratios i have found that is what they are!! :roll:

[miniswift]

Hi,

Both engines from mk1 and mk2 are same for G13B engines.
Only difference is that gearboxes.
mk1 is may be 20mm narrower than mk2 and cross pin instead of single pin in mk2.
Drive shaft is more or less same.

I heard that SOHC 16v from Bareno is cheaper engine than G13B.
I think it will fit driect on to G13B block and it is smaller and lighter.
I don't think there are many after market cam shaft for it though.

One guy I know in Scotland, he will be building this engine set up for his Subaru Justy racer then when he thinks it is good.
He said he will build into his son's Mini.

His name is Madzuki from teamswift!

Cheers
Atchi

[99fusion]

Thanks ed - 160 mph in 5th! oooh i like it. would b a one time only (8000 rpm :?)... but i like the number ranges... not bad. From my calculations that gives 70mph@ 3453.72 rpm. would b nice to knock it down to about 3000 rpm but it might b getting a bit dull on acceleration. Anyway of finding out what FD u would need to achieve 70mph@ 3200 rpm as a compromise?

Is there a market for custom suzuki final drives? I dunno, can u get a 3.44 FD as standard? i'll do a bit of research see wot i can find.
If not then i think so for minis. U could start with one for a decent crusing speed without killing the acceleration grin factor, for 10 and 12 in wheels (mk1s had 13s i think so u'd just have to find the right car - all swifts were built for economy, except the gti of course). That would certainly appeal to those who like to use their hybrids as everyday runners (like me! :) ) and if that works out later cater for the crazy acceleration drag racer.

Or how about just offering standard FDs as a starter (if they exist and fit for minis), imagine the convenience of being able to buy all in one place, straight from the 16vmini shop at the right price. That would b sweet. Save a lot of time too.

Overall The right FD is essential for completing a build, so there's definately a market. That's my 2 euro cents worth..

Seb

[mrbell]

The 3.44 FD is probably the 2nd most common gear. The 3cyl(except the XFi economy special) didn't have the power to pull w/ this gearing so the cars were very slow, and the higher performance models had a higher FD to improve accelleration. Otherwise, I think pretty every 4cyl standard metro/swift/firefly/baleno/esteem/etc came w/ the 3.44...
And there aren't many 16v SOHC aftermarket cams, but there are a couple, and all I need is 1. :-)

[Marcus Nordblom]

Is the first pic not of a standard GTI gearbox on tens???
from the gear ratios i have found that is what they are!


Youre right im just blind :lol:

146mph thats pretty fast, i wonder if you could hit 8.500 on the freeway with lets say 150hp n/a g13B in a mini :shock:

Marcus

[Marcus Nordblom]

In fifth thats is…

[99fusion]

Just wanna say thanks to everyone, very useful stuff here... i'm an eager beaver to make my mini a zuki retriever :) - just got to find a way to make it road legal here :protest: .... that and money... piss really ....

Never give up, Never Surrender! EEkoggleooogleoogogleleogeeglglbbaaa