Anyone building an A-series Mini?

[ErnstBlofeld]

Stupid question, I know.

I suppose the old A-series wasn't really the Mini's Achilles heel but the weak in-sump transmission. Folklore has it that prototype Minis had the engine mounted in the opposite direction, but that the in-sump transmission couldn't cope, and so the engine was turned around 180-degrees and the famed transfer gear interposed to lessen the strain on the car's transmission. Which led to a 4% loss in transmission efficiency. And I find that 4% annoying. After 40-odd years there must be a solution. Sir Alec himself appeared to have found a solution with his proposed 9X Mini replacment: that, too, had an in-sump transmission, but without the power-sapping idler gear.

Perhaps I'm a bit of a romantic, perhaps I'm a complete t***er but I'd like an A series Mini with a better transmission, one without the idler gear, with the engine facing the way it always should have faced. But I'm no engineer.

Oddly enough, the automatic version of BMC's 1800 used an underslung transmission that was driven by a Morse Hy-vo chain.

Other stuff. I chanced upon a website where some bloke was restoring a Matra Bagheera. A nice enough car, but the fella wanted a decent engine in it (I forget which.) But the size of the decent engine was such that it wouldn't fit with its attendant transmission, so the bloke - who was knowledgeable on these matters - remembered reading about the Volvo/Aisin-Warner M56 gearbox as used on the 850/V70 or whatever the blasted thing is called now.

At the time the M56 was the world's smallest five speed transmission - it had to be, because Volvo wanted to mount a 5-cylinder engine transversely and they were not to keen to adopt the transmission-in-sump arrangement that was the only game in town when Sir Alec was developing the Mini - even though he had pioneered the end-on transmission everyone uses these days in 1952 on his experimental transverse engined Morris Minor, registration TFC 717. (Having adopted the transmission-in-sump arrangement for the Mini he used it in his bigger cars. And for why? Well, with the Austin 2200 of 1972 he could bung in an in-line six cylinder engine where only a four might have fitted, and with his 9X Mini replacement he schemed a diddy little transverse six which was only possible with an underslung transmission. )

And then Volvo/Aisin Warner made the M65 transmission for their transverse-six engined big car the S80, and the M65 is even smaller than the M56.

But if the M56 is smaller than an R65 or a PG1, I wonder about Volvo's diddy little transmission mounted to a 1.8 K series, or a Red-Top Vauxhall 2-litre 16 valve and nestling under the standard-issue bonnet of a bell-nosed Mini.

[evolotion]

width isnt much of an issue, the main problem is the fact that modern 16v engiens have (comparitively) enormous cylinder heads. the width of the top of the "k" block is about half the width of the head.

iv always thought about useign the montego 1.3 (vw derived) gearbox which was naturally mated to an a-series as an alternative to the weak under sump box. but then i realised i wanted economy, power, cheapness and reliability. the a-sereis sadly cant fill all those qualities at once :(

[thomas]

has any1 used the montego box in a mini? 4 sum strange reason i like the a-series. i never had ne problems off mine that werent caused by me! mayb im a sentimental old fool :lol: but i still like the idea of a well sorted a series although a well sorted k series would be nice. oh so many choices and still not enuf money to even buy a mini :(

[mini1071s]

Geoff Watson of Watson minis did this on his rally car. I may go down this route with my bmw headed 1071 A series engine.

[bigmini998]

why a good a seriese is a cracker engine.

i have a 998 bored out +20 with a few mods and it makes 72bhp!!

i was third at a dyno day i think its going to be in august miniworld

i beat every 1275/1293 execpt two 1380's :(

and it revves all the way to 7500rpm when the valves bounce :)

[B20GT]

Sorry, but as the age old argument is, you just cant make 220 HP on a 1.3/1.4 A Series, and expect it to hold together (When budget is in mind),

I actually feel its not down to capacity, but sadly british designe :shock:

The japs are WELL known for over engineering thier wares, which stand the test of time, especially if maintained correctly.

I do like the sound of a Miglia on full chant, as well as the KAD cars, oh, and that 16v ausy BM mini/ A series was cool

[mini1071s]

Sorry, but as the age old argument is, you just cant make 220 HP on a 1.3/1.4 A Series, and expect it to hold together (When budget is in mind),

I actually feel its not down to capacity, but sadly british designe :shock:

The japs are WELL known for over engineering thier wares, which stand the test of time, especially if maintained correctly.

I do like the sound of a Miglia on full chant, as well as the KAD cars, oh, and that 16v ausy BM mini/ A series was cool

Well that's no longer entirely true...turbo engines give that - Matt Woods car has 224bhp and was a low budget build. I'm building a 16V turbo A, as are several others and Morspeed claim to have a reliable 300 bhp 16v mini engine, based like mine around the K1100 motorbike head conversion. I'm aiming for a reliable 230 brake out of my 1071 engine in road trim. Have a look at www.turbominis.co.uk for what's done these days to the A.

I'll have less than 1500 in my 16V 1071 including the sccr box. The head is the limiting factor, bottom ends are bombproof.

Do love that VTEC scream though, and they do have low service requirements. I can see why it's done, (and I have a rover K series project tucked away), but you can have a reliable A if you know how to build one, more about knowledge than money :) (It helps to be an engineer, lol!).

[VTEC]

Sorry, but as the age old argument is, you just cant make 220 HP on a 1.3/1.4 A Series, and expect it to hold together (When budget is in mind),

I actually feel its not down to capacity, but sadly british designe :shock:

The japs are WELL known for over engineering thier wares, which stand the test of time, especially if maintained correctly.

I do like the sound of a Miglia on full chant, as well as the KAD cars, oh, and that 16v ausy BM mini/ A series was cool

Well that's no longer entirely true...turbo engines give that - Matt Woods car has 224bhp and was a low budget build. I'm building a 16V turbo A, as are several others and Morspeed claim to have a reliable 300 bhp 16v mini engine, based like mine around the K1100 motorbike head conversion. I'm aiming for a reliable 230 brake out of my 1071 engine in road trim. Have a look at www.turbominis.co.uk for what's done these days to the A.


What...?!!! I'm sorry, but i've seen Matt Woods turbo on the back of a trailer after disintegrating, and i bet it's not the only time. A series engines just aren't reliable enough....

[B20GT]

I seen it go bang at the Pod aswell, the car also heavily jumps about under hard acceleration, the fuel bill must be a cracker, i bet it uses/ thins a lot of oil with that setup, its just a bruit.

16v minis are very refined daily drivers with bags of power, 5 speed boxes and safe reliable tuning potential to 300-400 whp if setup right, technolegy has moved on and improved a lot since the old carb'd turbo's, only down side is the cost has moved on too.

[pob]

I think that the point of this thread is starting to drift.
The point is that we have all seen some impressive power figures from the A-series, but the standard in-sump gearboxes are the weak link. The MG metro turbo was limited to 93bhp because of this.

What we are trying to ascertain here is - is there another gearbox out there that can be attached to the a-series that wil RELIABLY take the power figures that are being produced bywell tuned motors?

For example could a marina/minor sump be used and the engine mated to an F15 gearbox through an adaptor plate? (although I can hear you all saying - what's the point of that? why not dump in the whole engine & gearbox?) But this was the point of the original thread.

[mini1071s]

[/quote]

What...?!!! I'm sorry, but i've seen Matt Woods turbo on the back of a trailer after disintegrating, and i bet it's not the only time. A series engines just aren't reliable enough....[/quote]

We will have to agree to disagree then :) I'm pretty sure Matt has never suffered total engine failure. I'll ask him next time we speak.
I've already answered the gearbox questions, ( as has evolution), you can use the maestro 1.3 (vw) box in conjunction with an inline A block.

As far as I am aware, this wasn't a debate about which was better, the A or engine X, it was a question about boxes as Pob said. It does take skill to build the engine, as it does any engine. If you are pushing the envelope like me, you may get things wrong from time to time. I've seen a few of the US turbo vtecs go bang as well. Doesn't mean the engine is unreliable, far from it. So it goes with the A.

[snowfruit]

Heya mini1071s :) trying to convert these people to turbos? :p


What...?!!! I'm sorry, but i've seen Matt Woods turbo on the back of a trailer after disintegrating, and i bet it's not the only time. A series engines just aren't reliable enough....[/quote]

We will have to agree to disagree then :) I'm pretty sure Matt has never suffered total engine failure. I'll ask him next time we speak.
I've already answered the gearbox questions, ( as has evolution), you can use the maestro 1.3 (vw) box in conjunction with an inline A block.

As far as I am aware, this wasn't a debate about which was better, the A or engine X, it was a question about boxes as Pob said. It does take skill to build the engine, as it does any engine. If you are pushing the envelope like me, you may get things wrong from time to time. I've seen a few of the US turbo vtecs go bang as well. Doesn't mean the engine is unreliable, far from it. So it goes with the A.[/quote]

[mini1071s]

Just incase anyone missed what I wrote above, the volkswagen derrived box fitted to the A series maestro 1.3 can be used complete in a mini.

I tried it in my spare subframe yesterday. It will need just as much work to fit though as any 16V so you would have to be comitted to the A to go down that route. I am though :)

I should say (deep breath!) I was wrong about the reliablity of Matt's turbo, but only in so far as the gearbox. The engine as not afaik suffered a failure, though it is rebuilt yearly as a precaution, though wear is limited to the cam usually and the box bearings are changed. Not very often anyone admits that on a forum, lol!

I will be fitting the volks box onto a turbo A on one of the MAGA7INE project cars, so I will post the pics up on a new thread, and update this one with just the box fitting and of course you can see this in the mag when it comes out in Autumn this year.

Regarding the MPG of turbo cars, I am happy to report my 998 turbo with 9:1 cr on 10 psi, 295 head, stock cam and bottom end gets 55mpg+ at a steady 65mph with a 2.95 diff. That is about what I expected as factory quote is 60mpg for city E geared 998.

On a 3.44 diff now and recorded high 7 sec 0-60 times without the nitrous on low boost using a T3.

Top speed is not properly tested, but on an airfeild, it went off the clock and past the fuel gauge up to 10mph so your guess is as good as mine! (Not very accurate at anything over 80mph...). So High MPG is possible if built with some thought.

Snowfruit, of course I am! (But I'm also building a 16V pickup as well:)...)

[DaveCoxon]

Many of the spridget guys get rid of the Austin 4-spd trans (which is little stronger than a mini one) and replace with - well - anything else! Toyota units used to be the ones of choice, but any 2litre (or so) RWD transmission is usually pretty small. Usually the clutch-housing is the bulky part...
You'd struggle (not impossible) to use a 'mini' A-series engine as a base mind; The crank is a definate no-no.
I've never seen anyone doing such a conversion mind! It'd be interesting - but I'd much rather see something very different like a K20 in there instead of an A-series mind. Kinda makes it 'worth' the effort.....


And Peter; Stop trying to convince these guys to put A-series back in their minis! The more sensible folks that take them out, the more bits there are for 'tools' like us ;)

For the record - MattW has never had a terminal engine failure. This last weekend a valve adjuster wound out, giving the impression of a low compression - hence the trailer. And his major trans failure at POD around 14 months ago was from a combination of a super-sticky startline, a tall FD, and a bootload of laughing gas on the green light. The layshaft twisted and failed.
The guy who ran a 13.2sec 1/4 @ 109mph in his turbo A-series at Avon managed to avoid any problems mind!

[Baldspeed Racing]

Im rebuilding mine at the mo, mainly body work though to get it through the dreaded MOT. My 1380 runs a treat and is fast enough for me, would love a bike or Vauxhall engine conversion but I havent got the pennies.

[migliacars]

Just incase anyone missed what I wrote above, the volkswagen derrived box fitted to the A series maestro 1.3 can be used complete in a mini.

I tried it in my spare subframe yesterday. It will need just as much work to fit though as any 16V so you would have to be comitted to the A to go down that route. I am though :)

I should say (deep breath!) I was wrong about the reliablity of Matt's turbo, but only in so far as the gearbox. The engine as not afaik suffered a failure, though it is rebuilt yearly as a precaution, though wear is limited to the cam usually and the box bearings are changed. Not very often anyone admits that on a forum, lol!

I will be fitting the volks box onto a turbo A on one of the MAGA7INE project cars, so I will post the pics up on a new thread, and update this one with just the box fitting and of course you can see this in the mag when it comes out in Autumn this year.

Regarding the MPG of turbo cars, I am happy to report my 998 turbo with 9:1 cr on 10 psi, 295 head, stock cam and bottom end gets 55mpg+ at a steady 65mph with a 2.95 diff. That is about what I expected as factory quote is 60mpg for city E geared 998.

On a 3.44 diff now and recorded high 7 sec 0-60 times without the nitrous on low boost using a T3.

Top speed is not properly tested, but on an airfeild, it went off the clock and past the fuel gauge up to 10mph so your guess is as good as mine! (Not very accurate at anything over 80mph...). So High MPG is possible if built with some thought.

Snowfruit, of course I am! (But I'm also building a 16V pickup as well:)...)

love the fact you love the a series its the heart of a mini. and you are correct in saying built properly they are reliable. gearbox s sadly not the best.
ive had both A series race minis and vtec race minis, my first vtec minis engine was totally stock never had a prob with the engine just the rest of it. my other vtec race mini had 3 different modified engines all built by watsons and all 3 went bang. just goes to show that ALL engines if built incorrectly are unreliable.

[alexcrosse]

alot changes in 5 years...

[project designer]

I think the A-Series is/ was a good engine and has a lot of potential, depending on how deep your pockets are!
Purely just too expensive to get decent power out of when you have so many modern engine swap's/ conversions now.
Saying that though My Mini Designer will running a 1098 with a modified head, MG Metro Cam, flat top pistons, minispeed gearbox etc etc and should be good for about 65bhp haha! :)

[ardonfast]

I think the A-Series is/ was a good engine and has a lot of potential, depending on how deep your pockets are!
Purely just too expensive to get decent power out of when you have so many modern engine swap's/ conversions now.
Saying that though My Mini Designer will running a 1098 with a modified head, MG Metro Cam, flat top pistons, minispeed gearbox etc etc and should be good for about 65bhp haha! :)

i started reeding the point of this thred,and thought it was about a relyable gearbox to fit the A/ well as we all know its got draw backs /also i cant help but think of it as one lump/my defonition is the BAStarD is joined at the hip its one lump realy,also any mods to box or bttom end reqwire exstraction.PAIN big style,after 30 years FUcking about with it i want good grunt/long term[love mini not a trater,fit a lump that works the first time,[MR DESIGNER I HAD 3 MARY QWANTS 2,black/1 white ,unfortunatly i converted the white one into a cooper look like,good news ,maybe is i have the trim set,with imaculate qwant badges flower wheel badge ect/you can maybe get that stuff repro,but i kept the rear upstanding rear speekers, jem of a car ,sorry i killed one,??/sorry to change subject but its 3 am/

[MattG]

http://images.retecool.com/uploads/shabaz-holy_thread_resurrection_batman.jpg

[meetthespeakers]

I am building a A-Series, even though I told myself I was done with going that route. I will be using the Specialist Components 5 port EFI kit though. It's kind of a compromise, but everything I have heard of it Stateside says it's a fantastic kit. The software is 2nd to none, and I like the idea of playing with mapping, and getting rid of the distributor and carb setup. Have a bunch of other ideas to enhance the A-series, but that kit is about all the budget is gonna hold at the moment for that car.

I'm working on picking up a 95 camaro to pull the engine out of to replace the 84 camaro engine I got in my Morris Minor right now. Plus I am already half way done the G10 suzuki swap on the 85 Mini. So no swap most likely for my car, just looking for somewhat easy bolt on's for my car this year.

[jimfai]

your replacing the 2.8 with a 3.4 in your morris than? keeping the fuel injection as well?

[meetthespeakers]

Yes that is the plan atleast. 95 3.4 Camaro engine, tranny, fuel injection, etc. Hopefully it will be worth the effort, it's a shame they didn't have aluminum heads on the RWD 3.4's... Anyway, hoping to get started on it soon.

[jimfai]

you ever talked to brian? hard to find anyone more knowledgeable on these gm motors than him :)

http://www.bmcautos.com/

[meetthespeakers]

Cool website, the efi wiring harness looks tempting... will see what my pops wants to swing. He's fronting most of the build money, I'm doing the labor. Can't wait to get these other 2 minis done so I can start on my car again and his. Thanks for the link.