Final Drive and Quaife LSD

Hi! Has anyone here fitted the quaife LSD to their B16/B18s? And how noticable are the gains? Will it increase the grip by far, and is it worth the money? Hope anyone knows..Thanks in advance!

Best regards
Chris

[PaulC]

That sound great to me!! :twisted: :twisted:

[PaulAmes]

think thats a bit over the top!!

[mikeb]

i think they run on 15s .just a point i want to make the crx i have runs on 15s and even when nailing it in first it dont spin .the only spin you get is changing from first to second ,and this isnt realy worth metioning .
170 mph in a mini ,darren youd better get some kevlar pants :D

[mikeb]

the crx has 195/55 not too sure on the type r

[mikeb]

the integra type r has 15s with 195/55

Just received an email from Geoff the final drive that has been produced is 3.5.

Must go and do my calculations, what that brings the ratios to

Who makes the 3.5 final drive? Geoff?


I have been looking a bit on the quaife gear kit lately and calculated some on it. What seems like the best alternative for our applications I think would be the 3.786 Final Drive. With 205/55-13 wheels it would give a topspeed of about 230 km/h. And this should be more than enough for a mini anyway as it isn`t that aerodynamically succesful..At least I am not that interested in top speed, as it is more of a frightening and dangerous experience, and not to mention expensive if the authorities should get their hands on me..And with acceleration in mind, I believe it would be a good alternative. Would be sweet to rev the engine to 100 km/h in first like they do on R-bikes, Lambos and such! The only drawback is the great expense, and maybe it isn`t as ideal as it seems in theory..Has anybody tried this gearkit from quaife, and do you know how much it retails for in the UK? I have found it for $2650 in the US..

Some other option I have been looking into is the gearbox from the CRV, this would give a higher top speed, and overall higher gearing. But I don`t think you can run this without the 4WD system..But a 4WD wouldn`t be a bad idea either if you look past the extra expence,weight and drivetrain-loss. And higher power outputs would probably kill the weak 4WD system..But could be fun trying..

I have been looking at the quaife website..several times,and both the american and the UK website..And haven`t found anything regarding a 3.5 final drive for the b16 engine..The smallest ratio I have found there, as mentioned before, is the 3.786..No UK-pricelist there either..

Would it be possible to take only the final drive from quaife and swap it with the original? Or are there differences in the quaife design and the original design? I always thought you`d need the whole kit, but it might be possible to just swap the final drive for all I know..

Guess I could send Geoff a mail on the subject too, as he probably knows most of this. Anywho..thank you for your answers! :)

Writing a mail to him this very moment :D Will let you know when I get a response.

Quaife parts are a lot cheaper in the UK then..That may not be so odd as it is produced in the UK, but still, car parts are usually cheaper in the US..For me it is a great benefit to be able to buy it cheaper from the UK since the shipping costs would be smaller.. Thanks for the price info Darren!

[mikeb]

a 3.5 diff, will this mean the possibillity of 10 inch wheels and perfect handling :shock:

Mini Miglia racers have about 145bhp and run with 10" wheels - granted the tyres are slicks though.
The brakes (vented with 4 pots) however seem to be adequate and must work a lot harder than any road car - I am toying with the idea of fitting my 160bhp K into the wifes '68 Cooper!

[mikeb]

dave coxons turbo car ran on 10s and that had more power than a vtec

The weight of the car isn`t being that much heavier after putting in a vtec, so the brakes should be more than adequate with 10" wheels, at least with 4 pots with good pads..The problem would be the increased top speed, but that could be manipulated with gear ratios or shortening of the right leg :wink:

What several people have told me is that the brakes would be up to the job anyways for several reasons. The extra width of the disc brakes for 13`s is somewhat needed too due to the extra leverage of bigger wheels. How much you gain by adding bigger wheels and bigger brakes seems to be unknown, at least with the people I have spoken with..But everyone seems to favor the 10`s. I don`t know if it is because they`re conservative or know what`s best. I would also like to have 10`s on and see if it really is better, but I`d also like to have an open mind, and explore the possibilites of using 13`s with good results, although many of the experts would hate me for it.

To defende us using 13`s I have come up with several reasons: First of all, they who defend 10`s claim the circumference isn`t that different from 10`s and won`t make a big difference on gearing..This might be true if one compared with 165/70-10 with 175/50-13 profiles. But if you compare with ie. 185/60-13, or 205/55-13 it would be a different story. The gearing would change quite a bit. So I don`t think that`s really a good reason.

Another argument is the 10`s being lighter than 13`s, therefore giving less rotational mass, gyroscopic effect, and less unsprung weight. Thus giving better acceleration. This is too fair and good, but I have found 13`s weighing all the way down to 2.8 kgs, and tyres at 5,5 kgs give or take depending on profile, one ends up with approximately 8.5 kgs to be on the safe side, and not exaggerating. The lightest combination of 10`s I have heard of is 7,5 kgs. That seems to be the lowest limit from most wheel producers. And with a tube hose in, if using split rims, it would be 1 kg more. It isn`t absolutely necessary, but if used it would add up to 8,5 kgs. So the weight could be about the same. And that extra kilo could be defended by allowing far bigger brakes, thus increasing stopping power. If it is really needed to have all that stopping power is a different matter..Some would then say: How about the extra weight of the bigger brake discs and callipers etc? If you look in the wilwood catalogue there can be found quite an amount of nifty pieces which is very light, and is over half the weight of my current setup with metro 240mm brakes. I`m not sure if it fits directly yet, but I reccon it won`t be a big problem to make it fit. It isn`t much more expensive than 4 pots and 7,5" discs either..

I have read a bit on the subject at minispares too, where Keith Calver is enlightening this very subject of fitting bigger wheels. What he says is it ruins the mini`s geometry, and the extra leverage of both bigger and wider wheels, increases the wear of bushes, tie rods and other suspension parts. This means it would be essential to have a good suspension setup in order to have 13`s to function adequate. He also says 13`s were used mainly for cosmetical reasons, and it was what the "crowd" wanted at some point of time when Rover started supplying the minis with it from factory. Another thing he is mentioning speaking against the use of 13`s is the taller wheel, causes the tyres to not getting warm enough as it travels longer, and is being cooled down before it hits the road again at the next revolution. Mainly because the mini is so light. But if this were true, how come they are using 13`s as the smallest options in the caterham r500? The caterham weighs even less than the average mini.. One other reason not to use 13`s are increased drag due to bigger wheels, I believe this particualr point can`t be defended as it isn`t much to do to solve this "problem".

But one thing we can say to defend it is by returning to what I mentioned earlier..Based on 175/50-13 tyres, the circumference isn`t that much bigger than 10`s. So automatically one should assume the drag isn`t much bigger either as the wheels are about the same size. But of course, increase of tyre profiles will also increase the drag as mentioned. The point I am trying to get at, is that most 10" fans are using the 175/50-13 profile as a reference point, and I can`t really see that they have anything to argue about based on that profile.

And to further justify the use of 13`s I have been looking a bit on cars like the metro, and the caterham trying to get a better understanding of what will work, and what will not. If we start with the metro, which is the natural choice for me since the frame and suspension parts are from the metro. I believe those are equipped with 13`s.. And from a frame/suspension point of wiew it is still a metro, only it has been equipped with a smaller car/chassis behind it (the mini). My logic then tells me the suspension is up to the job handling 13`s. So that covers the suspension part of it. If we then look at the problems with leverage and tyres getting cold du to bigger wheels and light car. Just look at the Caterham as mentioned before..What`s good enough for a caterham is good enough for me I`d like to think :) One other thing to defend the use of big wheels is the engine/gearbox is designed for bigger wheels. Just look at the honda where the engine comes from, they are equipped with 15`s and still have quite short gearing compared to other cars.

But let us forget about defending the 13`s for a while and look into the possibility of using 10`s..How could we accomplish this? The gearing would be the least problem, although quite expensive as the ratios can be changed either with other gearboxes from the b-series family, or gear kit from quaife. Either complete kit, or just swap the final drive. About the drivetrain, can the discs and callipers fit directly over the metro hub, and drive flange or do you have to change the drive flange, and maybe more in order to make it fit? I am looking a bit into this at the moment, but I have a busy schedual so haven`t been able to find out for sure yet. It seems like the hub needs to remain because the bolt to the suspension arms are of different sizes from the mini hub.

The only way to find out what is best for sure, as our minis are a bit different from the regular mini, is to try the very best setup for 10`s and the 13`s availlable, and try what is the best option. Unfortunately this is a very expensive and time consuming solution on something that may not work at all. But would be very interesting if someone tried to use 10`s on a vtec mini and see if it handled any better! Will try myself eventually if it seems fairly easy to convert, and if I have the time and resources for it.


Hope I didn`t bore everyone with my little thesis here, but hope someone found it useful reading, and have some ideas or suggestions on what is wrong or right with my assumptions!

Cheers
Chris!

I had some speartime..nuff said? :wink: I looked a bit on the 10 inch idea earlier today, and it doesn`t look too easy, but I `ll have to look more into it..

The only mini I have tried is my current vtec mini, and a 98 mod rover mini, and both have 13`s. And both of them felt as they were handling very good, but when I am used to driving BMW and other big cars it isn`t that hard to be impressed with handling :) Would like to try a 10" mini to compare and see what has the better handling.

[mikeb]

A MINI with 13s dont handle like it does on 10s there is no comparison ,im building a vtec mini and if i could get the thing to run on 10s then that is what i'd do

my first mini ran on 10 inch wheels, and the grip was excellent. but i've got to say that my Vtec mini is allmost as good running on 13's. If you get any loss of grip round a corner all you got to do it floor it for the whole car to get back in the right direction. I'm using a Watson kit and because the wheels stick out further and the engine sits slightly further forward it makes all the difference to the handling of the car, bigger footprint etc. Also, unless you changed the final drive, you would probably be able to get wheelspin in every gear when using 10" wheels, which would be fun.

hey! I am a 16v member too! At least I was at the old forum.. :cry:

I've driven minis for the whole of my driving life, going on 25 years now, driven 10s 12s 13s slicks and road tyres and circuits and rally stages. I've even experimented with some very odd tyre sizes, and in all honesty the best handling is definately on 10s I think it is something to do with the size of the sidewall, a car shod with 10s will drift very predictably, whereas the larger rims tend to break away suddenly, and this alarming trait gets worse the larger and wider you go!

I'm going to try 165/70/12s on mine on the basis that the tyre sidewall height is similar to the 10 inch tyre and I have in my possesion a lovely set of ultralight 6x12 magnesium Rose Petals! :lol:

The gyroscopic arguement is an interesting one...although the rolling diameter of a 10 and a 13 with 175/50s is similar...the weight of a ten inch alloy is in the centre of the wheel due to the shorter spokes, and deflection of the rim would be less for a similar reason.

My A series car is running on 10s it has 120bhp and I am only using drilled s discs with ebc greenstuffs and a metro servo, these are capable of stopping the car fairly rapidly from 100+ without too much drama :? Whereas a fairly standard 998 with 185/60/13s and a complete vented metro 4 pot set up really struggled to slow the car, I put this down to the leverage of the larger wheels and the amount of grip generated by the tyres.

Just a few thoughts!

Gaz

Ive got 10s 12s and 13s knocking about so I might have a play when the car is finished

Writing a mail to him this very moment :D Will let you know when I get a response.


Chris, Any reply received?

No, haven`t got any response from him yet. The mail has probably got lost, or the mail address I sent it to is rarely used.. Will try to send a new mail on the other address on the web-site some day now..Im working on my mini now, so haven`t got much time for sitting on a computer for the moment.. Will post the reply here when it shows up, and if you get to find out about the final gear please inform us:)

[duck]

I have contacted Quaife and they said they do not produce any different final drive ratio's for the Y1/2 gearbox :?

[Martin]

Last time I spoke to Geoff, he said final drive should be available in March....

This was on the fifth of this month.